Occupation and Status/Social regard

[Maz]

Since many keep mentioning "it depends on setting" I want to make it clear that I am talking about modern day (today). I thought that was clear from my OP, sorry about the confusion there.

And to make it more specific, I am mostly interested in modern day US, as it's for a game set there.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Brett

120 years ago soldiers were not admitted to many theatres and public-houses.

That is, enlisted or NCO rank soldiers. Officers got a better deal.

Historically, though, Europe's armies and navies were composed of men who had no better options and who were "economically expendable." That is, the younger sons of the gentry and nobility who couldn't go to university to get into the Church or one of the learned professions and the most desperate class of poor people who couldn't get any other work and who were too poor to emigrate.

During the 18th and early 19th centuries, many common soldiers were victims of conscription, forced levies from the population or press gangs. In all cases, these processes selected for the poorest and most socially vulnerable men.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Maz

But it's my clear impression that if someone is a doctor, they will automatically be listened more to than others. Even if they do not wear expensive clothing or a doctors outfit (but yes of course they would still have to identify themselves as doctors before people would know that they are.

Depending on the situation, I think that people tend to listen to experts. So, obviously educated people with formal qualifications might get a bit of Social Regard. Depending on culture those people might be physicians, attorneys, scholars or religious figures (with or without actual Religious Rank - as would be the case for a mullah in the Islamic world or a protestant minister in many denominations).

Originally Posted by Maz

Lets say your plane crashes in the mountains and you need to decide if you want to stay and wait for help or try to find a way to safety. Would someone, known to the others as a doctor, be listened more to, than say someone known to be a flight attendant?

It depends. The doctor might have a bit more credibility to start unless the Flight Attendant can assert herself and state her qualifications. In this case, it's up to Leadership skills; flight attendants are trained in the basics of "people herding" in addition to serving drinks and rubbery little portions of food.

The other factor is the actual ability to lead. If the doctor is elderly and has a broken leg, he's not going to be in a position to lead a rescue party. Likewise, if the flight attendant is obviously freaked out by the accident, she's not going to lead either. In those cases, Leadership might default to ST as per the rules, but that's pretty stupid way of doing it.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

That is, enlisted or NCO rank soldiers. Officers got a better deal.

Historically, though, Europe's armies and navies were composed of men who had no better options and who were "economically expendable." That is, the younger sons of the gentry and nobility who couldn't go to university to get into the Church or one of the learned professions and the most desperate class of poor people who couldn't get any other work and who were too poor to emigrate.

During the 18th and early 19th centuries, many common soldiers were victims of conscription, forced levies from the population or press gangs. In all cases, these processes selected for the poorest and most socially vulnerable men.

Fairly common historically. It is rare for there to be a culture where soldiers do not have high prestige, but fairly common for there to be a culture where high-class soldiers got social regard and low class got social stigma.

In Classical Greece soldiers were respected but wouldn't have Social Regard "so you're a soldier; we all are". Aristocratic soldiers got sort of a mock social regard that was based on habit. The fact that many aristocrats felt they had to dismount before battle is telling. Things changed when tactics grew more complex and allowed a leader to be distinctly recognizable as a military asset on the one hand, and also made soldiering a distinct profession.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Maz

Since many keep mentioning "it depends on setting" I want to make it clear that I am talking about modern day (today). I thought that was clear from my OP, sorry about the confusion there.

And to make it more specific, I am mostly interested in modern day US, as it's for a game set there.

You might do subcultures. Among Hassidics a Rebbe would have an almost royal standing. This would be less so among non-Hassidics but he would still merit extra respect. He probably wouldn't have Social Regard as I understand it among non-Hassidics.

I don't think any occupation would merit Social Regard from America in general. Some are more respected then others though. Celebrities don't quite work. A celebrity can't command automatic respect; much celebrity worship is silliness by people who know they are being silly. Not the same as what would be given to an aristocrat back when aristocracy meant more then "British museum curator".

[dcarson]

My dad served in WW II and told stories of the many places in Norfolk, VA that had signs saying No black or sailors.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Depending on the situation, I think that people tend to listen to experts.

Yes I also started to realize that in situations where people might listen to a doctor more, is in crisis situations with people wounded or otherwise at a health-danger (which is pretty much any adventure situation, but still). And they listen to the doctor because you want her able to treat you if your wounded. Ie. you listen to her in situations where her expertise is relevant.

The player in the upcoming game who is going to play and doctor, which brought about this thread, also gave the example of people in social situations going "Oh, so, you a doctor?!". I clearly a positive reaction modifier based on occupation. But I agree that here its a reaction bonus based on an assumed high Status based on assumed assumed high wealth. If you then say your working in the local prison or not at all, then I think the reaction bonus disappear.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

In this case, it's up to Leadership skills; flight attendants are trained in the basics of "people herding" in addition to serving drinks and rubbery little portions of food.

I agree the flight attendant is likely much better qualified. But would the average passenger respect that? I guess, as you say, it depends on a successful Leadership-check.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by dcarson

My dad served in WW II and told stories of the many places in Norfolk, VA that had signs saying No black or sailors.

Ick. I don't know which is worse but the second is darned ungrateful.

I suppose though a lot of that sort of thing is Reputation at least with soldiers and sailors. "Single men in barracks don't behave like plaster saints" and all. Is there a group Reputation that can substitute for Social Stigma?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by rust

In my experience Social Regard (respected) 1 would perhaps be Firemen,
Policemen, Nurses, Paramedics, Priests and Teachers - but not Soldiers.
Status -1 would perhaps be beggars, homeless people and people who
have to live in some kind of institution, but not people with average ser-
vice jobs.

Soldiers aren't seen very often on streets at least not soldiers that are obviously being soldiers. That is there aren't columns parading through the street as there might be on Barryar. There are soldiers on leave but they behave just like civilians, though some wear uniforms on leave.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

There are only two kinds of Social Regard in modern western society, the social regard (feared) that colour-wearing gang members have, and the social regard that instantly recognizable celebrities get. Occupations don't get social regard, not even occupations like "doctor". Malpractice insurance would be a lot cheaper if they did. Status of occupations can be estimated based on pay scale. (Doctors don't have Social Regard, but they do have Status.)

Celebrities in America have the sort of ambiguous place comparable to similar personages in Rome and Byzantium. They really wouldn't qualify for Social Regard.