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Old 02-16-2019, 08:50 AM   #311
johndallman
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The comparison would then be between an aluminum alloy that is maybe 30% stronger for its weight and a steel alloy that is 60% stronger for its weight, is 30% less affected by gravity and enchanted with Temperature Tolerance (Cold) and a Resistance +3 to many hazards attendant on airship operations.
The steel is a better bit in these circumstances.

The steel for the mooring mast and other stuff on the Pillar of Kadath will be low-temperature alloys. There's going to be quite a bit of it, and it's a custom job anyway.
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Old 02-16-2019, 08:51 AM   #312
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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It might be against your usual method, but maybe the ASNs found a marvelous wood or what not (maybe a super-bamboo) on Jotunheim that they can substitute for metal in certain applications. Thus you can have plantations where airships are grown... so to speak.
Oh, I have nothing at all against magical woods. In fact, I suppose that all early ASN airships used some form of wood, either enchanted or naturally suitable (and then enchanted, I suppose).

At some point, however, ASN metal industries would have become developed enough to enable them to make airships from metal. And good alloys will be, I think, superior even to mystical wood with enchantments. Especially as the steel, at least, can be rune-carved and alchemically treated, maybe not to the point that some rare would could be, but enough so that I don't imagine wood remaining competitive for the larger and more powerful rigid airships.

The mystic wood might still have applications for easily transportable inflatable airships of more modest sizes.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:06 AM   #313
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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The steel is a better bit in these circumstances.

The steel for the mooring mast and other stuff on the Pillar of Kadath will be low-temperature alloys. There's going to be quite a bit of it, and it's a custom job anyway.
Fair enough.

Note that Kadath is a Place of Power and powerful magic is easy there, easier than the ASN runecasters and other magicians are used to. Granted, it's heavily aspected toward cold, loss and non-existence, but even magic that is not so aspected (or even meant to temporarily protect humans from these things) is still easier to perform than it would be anywhere on Germania Hyperborea except at the holiest sites near powerful gates to the World Tree.

This, combined with the high level of support the Anhenerbe magicians are giving the expedition (as long as no one senior actually has to live at this frozen hellsite), means that we can assume all sorts of alchemical and rune-enchanted stuff being sent with their supplies. For example, even if the steel for the mast and the important supports is low-temperature alloys, it will still be treated with alchemical processes for cold-tolerance and strength and engraved with runes that make it yet stronger and possibly even still winds around it.

I suppose that the unfortunate junior Ahnenerbe magicians assigned to Kadath and the Amfortas will be versed in weather-control magic and provided with items that allow them better command over winds, as those re among the greatest threats they face.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:12 AM   #314
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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The value of the ASN rigid airships with the most sophisticated Elemental Furnace engines is such that they would have routinely designed facilities for ground handling with redundant systems for a higher margin of safety.
OK, I've now read and understood that paper, and I see where you're coming from. The terrible cold at the center of Kadath is presumably no problem for the Mi-gö, but it is for machinery and men to operate it.

Where's the trade-off between weight that has to be carried over the World Tree and building work that has to be done in Kadath? What is the ground around the pillar like?
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:47 AM   #315
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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OK, I've now read and understood that paper, and I see where you're coming from. The terrible cold at the center of Kadath is presumably no problem for the Mi-gö, but it is for machinery and men to operate it.
Yes, though, as so often before, only the men who have to exercise judgement and initiative need be alive.

But yes, for the ASN mechanics, technicians, engineers, weatherwise magicians and the occulltists who control Kadavergehorsamer, human or Mi-gö, (someone with occult training is required, though items can replace true talent, as long as the individual has the appropriate knowledge), working in these conditions is pure hell.

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Where's the trade-off between weight that has to be carried over the World Tree and building work that has to be done in Kadath? What is the ground around the pillar like?
It's mostly ice and the occasional building of black stone, far too tough to break down for materials. The buildings near the pillar are generally the top floors of vast high-rises, only the highest points still remaining out of the ice, which is thicker there than elsewhere in the (mostly) empty city (which still seems partially sunk in ice, though the buildings were often so huge that what sticks out is still relatively tall).

There is more ordinary stone available in the mountains around, but not closer than 20-30 km for a large supply (which, though, is a fairly quick trip for a running Mi-Gö and they can pull large loads coming back).

Magic that works with ice is trivially easy in this place, so making things of ice, tinkering with its density (at least within limits, i.e. you can make extremely dense ice with magical pressure, but not as dense as stone or metal) or sinking supports deep into it is but the work of moments.

That being said, the Ahnenerbe experts warned against relying on this ease too much, as Places of Power can make working magic there hazardous, especially for amateurs who'd not be able to perform such magic outside it. So, you know, attaching supports by sinking it deep into ice is fine, but making an ice palace like Elsa in Disney's Frozen is contraindicated, at least unless you like gambling with vast magical power. It's specifically magic that the place is aspected toward that's trivially ease to perform, but hazardous if you make the slightest mistake, so this does not apply to the ordinary Ahnenerbe magical enhancements, just ice magic and the like.

I expect all materials were imported, in parts only needed assembly, except that which could be made from stabilized ice, stone from the mountains or such small extra comforts and luxuries the Amfortas could bring from the Men of Leng when it returned for more supplies to Kadath.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:52 AM   #316
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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I expect all materials were imported, in parts only needed assembly, except that which could be made from stabilized ice, stone from the mountains or such small extra comforts and luxuries the Amfortas could bring from the Men of Leng when it returned for more supplies to Kadath.
OK, I think I can work up a weight estimate, but I need to know the diameter of the pillar since things are going to be wrapped round it.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:54 AM   #317
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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OK, I think I can work up a weight estimate, but I need to know the diameter of the pillar since things are going to be wrapped round it.
You may choose it, with the understanding that it might have been designed in the unimaginable past to serve as an anchoring point for a gate present there, and consequently, needed stairs cut into its side and space for cargo-handling facilities at the top.

Of course, the black stone is so tough that the ability to support its own weight need not concern us, but the top needs to be big enough for comfortable use of a gate that was at least 30' in diameter. Of course, that doesn't have to mean the pillar needs to be that big, but at least big enough to allow multiple 'people'* at the top at once and, if necessary, perhaps even the mooring of alien craft to it with superscience or magic (equivalent, perhaps, at the level which beings able to work this black stone must have been).

*Or whatever built it.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:58 AM   #318
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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You may choose it, with the understanding that it might have been designed in the unimaginable past to serve as an anchoring point for a gate present there, and consequently, needed stairs cut into its side and space for cargo-handling facilities at the top.
That sounds like 12-15 metres diameter. If it is much taller than 30 metres, which depends on the depth of the ice, it might be fatter.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:11 AM   #319
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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That sounds like 12-15 metres diameter. If it is much taller than 30 metres, which depends on the depth of the ice, it might be fatter.
It might be infinitely tall (more likely several hundred meters), but that wouldn't affect the diameter, because the black stone is less a natural substance than solidified enchantment and so does not need to worry about supporting its own weight (it's stronger than any substance known to the ASNs, even in wild theory).

The space at the top will be determined by the needs of the elder designers, not the physical constraints that apply to any additions that the ASNs make. Note, however, that if there was a metal superstructure there in elder antiquity, nothing now remains of it, just the pillar itself.

The pillar will be unlikely to be wider around than the 30' gate at the top and perhaps somewhat narrower, if the original builders had some kind of platform on top that is now long gone.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:18 AM   #320
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazi Outpost in Unknown Kadath, Plateau of Leng, Dreamlands

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The pillar will be unlikely to be wider around than the 30' gate at the top and perhaps somewhat narrower, if the original builders had some kind of platform on top that is now long gone.
However, the staircase presumably takes a bite out of the top area? 10 metres diameter OK?
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