Aeroduel, and Boat Wars (Hydroduel?) in 6th?

[Chris Goodwin]

THing is, Aeroduel, Tanks, and Boat Wars are (or rather, should be) different games that are compatible with Car Wars. You shouldn't have to use them together, but you should be able to if you want.

[Pentalarc]

Originally Posted by woodchuck

No airplanes, tanks, boats, or any of the crap that helped ruin Car Wars in the first place. I thought I wanted those things and now realize they helped ruin a great game. I remember a brief conversation I had with Scott Haring back in 1986, that went something like this. Pacificon in case anyone cares.

Me-Alot of people want airplanes rules for Car Wars.

Scott-*pointing at the Midville map*Something like a P-51 Mustang would be off the map in one turn and do you think it would really add anything to the game?

Me-No, not really but it might be fun.

Alas Scott was right, I quess I own the man an appology.

Airplanes tanks and boats did not ruin car wars.

The lack of new supplements ruined car wars (No new arenas, Road Atlas Survival Guide series left unfinished, huge mistakes and poor design in VG3 had a lot more to do with it)

Micromanaging of the rules to take away advantages rather than letting players find ways to counter them or bringing in new equipment to counter them ruined car wars. (Changing the rules for the oil/ice combo or ramplates simply because they had become too popular, etc.)

Overly complex rules caused by people demanding greater and greater adherence to "reality" (jump jets, anyone?) ruined car was to the point where I for one broke into a cold sweat any time I saw a ramp, and banned jump jets from games that I ran.

Finally, people not knowing how to apply tanks and planes ruined car wars. Microplane fighting cars and grasshoppers, fine. $3,000,000 jets and bomber airships fighting cars? No, no no! They should be fighting each other. A cargo chopper covered in DPU autocannons is a deterrent for a road convoy, not a working encounter. But you can set it up against other military equipment.

Finally, Boat Wars ruining Car Wars? Sorry, we had boats in the late pocketbox days. Boat Wars is bashed because it came in the same size box as Tanks and Aeroduel that people didn't know how to use correctly.

I love my bumper-triggered RL's and sabot AT's backed by ramplates, but I used them in the arena. I had no illusions about trying to take out an MBT with them. For that, I designed another MBT. . .

[Pentalarc]

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

THing is, Aeroduel, Tanks, and Boat Wars are (or rather, should be) different games that are compatible with Car Wars. You shouldn't have to use them together, but you should be able to if you want.

Almost exactly, thank you!

Cars vs. Tanks or jets and the like should be *rare, special cases* the idea that everything had to show up on the same board was the problem.

[swordtart]

It would have been nice if the rules between the expansion sets had been consistent though. Aeroduel had rules for bombs that were divergent from the ones in the companion (not that the bombing rules didn't need some revision). Suddenly there was a way of attacking a vehicle without retaliation as bombing in a certain way ignored range penalties. The rules for long barrels were confused and illogical. CW tanks introduced some interesting rules for spotting that make a valuable addition to the normal game.

Unfortunately much of this got propogated into the conventional game through the UACFH without the supprot material that put it in perspective.

We always had the option of playing a couple of cars armed with nothing bigger than a machine gun but once you start having championships and making the game competitive rather than a diversion, the wider perception of the gaming community is that competitive is the way it should be played. As a result official rules changes kept being brought in to placate the rules lawyers. Many of these just opened other loopholes.

Tournaments have ruined many perfectly good games. Magic, Warhammer, CW to name but a few.

[Chris Goodwin]

Most of the early Car Wars scenarios involved assymetric combat, which seemed to be a running theme with Steve Jackson's designs at the time -- look at Ogre with its crunchies vs. supertank scenarios. In the pocket box, one of the suggested scenarios was five motorcycles against a heavily armed van, and that theme continued: cycle gangs vs. big rigs, car packs vs. big rigs, motorcycles vs. autoduellists vs. pedestrian militia. Superheroes vs. autoduellists! I absolutely want to be able to continue to do these kinds of things. Attack helicopters vs. main battle tanks; infantry plus autoduellists vs. tanks; air pirates vs. zeppelins; Green Circle jet skis vs. whaling ships. All of these scenarios are right in line with the originals. (The Crash City/Sunday Drivers killer RV came straight out of the movie Stripes!)

(At the back of my mind is Car Wars/Aeroduel writeups for X-wing and TIE fighters, to play out the trench battle.)

[Angrytubist]

As I said in the OP, I would want the hypothetical 6th edition "Aeroduel" , and "Hydroduel" vehicles to be far more compatible with one another than in the Compendium days (I'm leaving 5e out of this discussion entirely, obviously) This means max. speeds and weapon ranges should be within roughly the same parameters. This is the main problem I have with jets (too fast) and tanks (too powerfully armed, armored) so I would come up with an in-universe reason to exclude these things. (fuel consumption, cost of construction are some good ones.)

I would also like too see the design rules be more compatible. (one table of plants, one of gas engines, possibly one of hybrids).

I don't see whats wrong with just slowing planes down a bit to make them work better in scale, and on a closer level to cars. Real Life fixed-wing ultralights cruise at 60-70 mph, about interstate speed, though admittedly they can move faster.

How could boat wars ruin your car wars game? Did you do much sailing in your highway games?

[Fred Skin]

I would not want to see boats, aircraft, & miscellanea included in a core Car Wars release, mostly because of the additional rules & equipment not suited to car/cycle/truck games. A separate supplement, possibly part of an ENTIRELY NEW published Car Wars campaign, would be nice.

[Pentalarc]

Originally Posted by Fred Skin

I would not want to see boats, aircraft, & miscellanea included in a core Car Wars release, mostly because of the additional rules & equipment not suited to car/cycle/truck games. A separate supplement, possibly part of an ENTIRELY NEW published Car Wars campaign, would be nice.

Tanks and planes don't have to be in the core rules. . . think that boats should. Basically, the vehicles that were in the compendium should be what is available in the basic set. I have no problem with tanks/planes being in a separate expansion, but I think it should be just that: an expansion, compatible with the basic game.

You don't like tanks or jets? Don't use them. I admit, I didn't even use them that much.

But what is the reason for the rest of us not to be able to have it because you don't like it?

Why do we have to *shrink* the Car Wars universe/background, instead of expanding it? Why do we have to take away our options? If you don't like it, you don't have to use it, but why do things have to be smaller, have to be *less*?

At this point, we'll have one or two arenas, a handful of stock designs, and no options. I like Car Wars the Card Game, but I don't want Car Wars to become that.

Why do so many people want less, and want less to be built into th game so that none of us can have it?!

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Angrytubist

I don't see whats wrong with just slowing planes down a bit to make them work better in scale, and on a closer level to cars. Real Life fixed-wing ultralights cruise at 60-70 mph, about interstate speed, though admittedly they can move faster.

The only reason they go so slow is that they are high drag structures, due to the lack of fairings and cockpits. People and controls are high-drag.

CW/Aeroduel microplanes (as premiered in ADQ, at least) are really just small planes, not ultralights. VERY small, to be blunt, and proportioned wrong, but still, airplanes, not ultralights. (Ultralights are powered hang gliders, typically.)

They have enclosed bodies, and are really tiny... a microplane counter ranges from 1x1 to 1.5x1.5 inch; a piper cub is 2.3x2.5...

[Angrytubist]

I was aware that ultra-lights are limited in speed by law, a family friend flys a "legal eagle" kitplane. An ultralight kit with body-fairings. We did some of the machine-work in our shop when he built it. (I never knew there were so many oddly-angled (custom made) brackets in a small plane.)

Anyhow I guess what I'm asking is that if you don't mind the small counters, what's wrong with holding a fixed-wing microplanes top speed to 175-225 mph. this would mean cruising at 125-150 slightly faster than the top speed of the average dueling car.

This just seems like it would retain playability a lot better. (and keep everything on the table.)