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Old 04-21-2021, 08:25 AM   #21
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

It sounds like the semi-official ruling from SJ is in line with the house rule I described in the dedicated thread on this subject that was active a week or two ago. For what it's worth, I've played this way for many years and it is a satisfying compromise to resolve the various inconsistencies in the way this is discussed in the rules. I particularly like that you can bowl someone over during movement phase if you can get in from the side or rear, but are not granted a super-power to avoid attacks when you approach from the front. The second half of that is what people seem to have in mind when thinking about potential imbalance when humanoids initiate HTH vs. other humanoids, approaching from the front. But retaining that first ability is also important for modeling the tactics groups of animals or poorly armed humanoids use to bring down outnumbered targets. I'm glad the 'SJ ruling' will retain that, as it figures prominently in the tactics of wolf packs, etc.

Also note that beings that are too big for you to engage get to enter HTH with you during movement if they want to. This is perhaps controversial because they get to bypass the attack you might want to aim at them as they approach, but has the up side that it makes big bois more dangerous, which I think is a good thing.
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Old 04-21-2021, 06:40 PM   #22
Skipper2921
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

Thanks for getting the clarification, Skarg. The Legacy rules just weren't clear to me. Glad that is resolved!
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Old 04-21-2021, 08:01 PM   #23
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Also note that beings that are too big for you to engage get to enter HTH with you during movement if they want to. This is perhaps controversial because they get to bypass the attack you might want to aim at them as they approach, but has the up side that it makes big bois more dangerous, which I think is a good thing.
Note that the giant who pushes you over isn't in HTH herself, but she does get the +4 DX for putting your head down like a golf ball for her club.
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:09 PM   #24
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

I'm not sure she can strike you.

You pointed out to me not so long ago that a gargoyle doesn't get engaged prior to landing on you, because he's not in a front hex. He's above you.

The giant can't strike someone he's knocked down because that figure isn't in a front hex. He's under the giant.

He can, of course, be trampled as a free action. And of course, the giant can back up next turn and take a swing, but she can't do it the turn you fell down.
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Old 04-22-2021, 04:56 AM   #25
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Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

If a giant can't club a human on the ground under her then can a human strike with a weapon at a rat under himself?
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Old 04-22-2021, 05:52 AM   #26
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

I thought about that, but decided a rat ain't under you when you strike him. He's on you. It's a fudge, no doubt, but I can't see how you'll square not being able to engage a gargoyle above you about to initiate HTH with a giant striking you when he's knocked you down and in the same hex.

If your own hex counts as a front hex for striking someone on the ground, it seems it should count as a front hex for engaging a flying critter before he initiates HTH.

I guess there are three situations here:

(1) A giant striking someone knocked down in his own hex.
(2) A flyer above a figure initiating HTH and engagement rules
(3) A human striking a rat in his own hex.

(3) is clear in the rules that it's legal. I thought (2) would allow engagement but you talked me out of it by a simple, literal reading of engagement. One could certainly make the argument that (1) is more like (3) than like (2), but I tend to think that (3) is more an exception to general facing and attack rules, not something to be generalized to any critter small enough to be underfoot.

I'm less certain of that conclusion after writing it all out, but if you can attack the guy knocked down, I don't see why you couldn't direct your attention up to engage the fellow who is initiating HTH before he drops on you and slow him down so that he has to wait until the action phase (which is a big deal).

A gargoyle dropping down on you may be like the falcon (ITL 133), but an armed human isn't like the mouse and the gargoyle rarely has the element of surprise the falcon often has.
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:39 AM   #27
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

The flying gargoyle can choose to avoid engagement even in your front hex by virtue of flying, as long as there's no ceiling.
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:33 AM   #28
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

Fair point, Henry. I'd think that avoiding engagement, however, means putting distance between yourself and the figure on the ground, which one can't do when initiating HTH. You certainly couldn't avoid engagement and still make a normal melee attack.

But I'll concede that the two situations (the giant and gargoyle) are less similar than I first thought.
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:47 AM   #29
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

I'd say it's an open question as to what happens when a multi-hex creature approaches a 1 hex creature under these revised guidelines. I think they should have to choose between two options:

1) Use the push-back/trample rules, letting the giant keep his or her feet but providing a DX save for the human to escape by stepping back

2) Use the modified rules for initiating HTH, which can be done during movement phase (because the target never engaged the big figure), but resulting in both figures being on the ground.

I.e., I would not say the revision to HTH initiation is an excuse for letting you make push-back/trample automatically succeed.
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Old 04-22-2021, 12:25 PM   #30
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

I'm not sure, Lars, but I don't think anyone was suggesting that. Perhaps I misread someone.

The issue Henry and I were discussing was whether the giant can make a regular attack with a club on the same turn she knocked a human down (so the human is in one of her hexes).
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