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Old 04-19-2021, 01:15 AM   #11
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Steve confirmed it is NOT possible to attempt HTH during the movement phase while engaged. If you become engaged, you need to use option (o)
In the most recent, previous thread on the topic I think we were all (or very nearly all) agreed about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
You also need to meet the requirements to attempt HTH, so if you don't have greater MA, and can't get to a Rear hex, you can't attempt HTH.
I don't suppose he clarified that when you do have greater MA, and are coming in during the movement phase under option (b), are you still limited to the rear hex, or can you then come through the front hex without stopping? Be nice if he spoke on that, because the last debate grew a bit heated over that point.
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Old 04-19-2021, 01:22 AM   #12
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
We just played our first (test) battles with TFT yesterday, and we noticed that initiating HTH seems quite broken:
On this very topic, we recently had a very long debate, How do you adjudicate initiating HTH? that begins here.
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Old 04-19-2021, 02:10 AM   #13
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
The chance of initiating HTH is not influenced by any stats at all. Anyone has 66% chance (80% from behind) of succeeding, and thus knocking down and disarming an opponent (who might or might not be able to draw a dagger in response).
One way to dampen the efficacy of attempting HTH, without messing with the other rules, is to come up with your own table for the results of that 1d6 roll. You can extend the odds of the highest and lowest results too by applying some simple modifiers to the roll.

This is just an example. As in the RAW, the defender wants to roll high.


THE ROLL TO REPEL A HTH ATTEMPT – defender rolls 1d6 and on:

1 or 2 ----- INITIATING HTH SUCCEEDS, defender cannot draw dagger, but may keep & use one if it was already drawn

3 or 4 ----- INITIATING HTH SUCCEEDS, but defender draws & readies dagger if they were wearing one

----- 5 ----- INITIATING HTH FAILS, attacker shoved back to hex they came from

6 or more - INITIATING HTH FAILS, attacker shoved back to hex they came from and the defender automatically hits them with their weapon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MODIFY THE RESULT OF THE DEFENDER’S ROLL AS FOLLOWS (all modifiers stack):
+1 ---- If the attempt came from a FRONT hex
-1 ----- If the attempt came from the REAR hex
-2 ----- If the attempt was by a large predator (wolf, bear, lion, etc)
+1 ---- If the defender is at least 2ST stronger than the attacker (this gets an attribute involved)
+2 ---- If the defender is at least 4ST stronger than the attacker (and deters those pesky swarms of weaklings)
+4 ---- If the attempt came from a Prootwaddle
+3 ---- If the attempt came from a berserk Prootwaddle (gotta give the little guy one chance)
+/-1 -- Plus or minus 1 for each level of difference in Unarmed Combat talents between the attacker and defender


Points for noticing that using a -1 modifier for an attempt from the rear means you can forget having to roll that pesky do-over when a 6 came up on an attempt from rear. That's one change definitely worth keeping.

That's just an example. In this case things are a little better than they were for the defender under the RAW, but obviously you could adjust those numbers easily to make things harder or easier for either side. You could diversify the results more, and put in some quirky stuff. Say, -4- attempt fails, attacker's shoelace was untied and they fall unarmed at the defender's feet :>
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Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 04-19-2021 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 04-19-2021, 07:55 AM   #14
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

You did do avoid with the do-over roll, Steve, but you changed the odds. By subtracting one from the roll, the odds are:

3/6 - Initiate, no dagger drawn
2/6 - Initiate, dagger drawn
1/6 - No initiation

The odds in RAW are

2/5 - Initiate, no dagger drawn
2/5 - Initiate, dagger drawn
1/5 - No initiation

Whether that's an improvement or not is up to you, of course. There's certainly some sense in lowering the odds of drawing a dagger or pushback when attacked from the rear.
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Old 04-19-2021, 08:01 AM   #15
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

Looking how far down the pile Steve is to get to my articles, I'm sure there's room for a decent grappling article to revamp the HTH rules.

My only request is that the total length and complexity of the rules be reduced by the addition. For example combining slime drops, wasps, trample and HTH into a single mechanic.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:04 AM   #16
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You did do avoid with the do-over roll, Steve, but you changed the odds. By subtracting one from the roll...
That wasn't a bug, it was a design feature! hehehe... No, I really was trying to illustrate how easily anyone could fine-tune the odds to their liking just by applying tiny modifiers to that 1d6 roll.

For my own taste I'm actually inclined to go more extreme, with a -2 for attacks from the REAR and a +2 for attacks from a FRONT hex. It should be dang hard to overcome a surprise from the REAR. As to making it significantly easier to repel the attempt from the FRONT, that would just be to mollify all the naysayers in the "Adjudication" thread who looked at me askance for even allowing HTH to be attempted through the FRONT hex.

Nah, on second thought I'd stick with just the +1 <ducking for cover>
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:11 AM   #17
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Looking how far down the pile Steve is to get to my articles...

My only request is that the total length and complexity of the rules be reduced by the addition. For example combining slime drops, wasps, trample and HTH into a single mechanic.
If I ever have enough time. That's an impressive amount of work you've done!

To be clear, I applaud your effort to create a streamlined, uniform system to these sundry yet highly related things.
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Old 04-20-2021, 04:50 PM   #18
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
...
I don't suppose he clarified that when you do have greater MA, and are coming in during the movement phase under option (b), are you still limited to the rear hex, or can you then come through the front hex without stopping? Be nice if he spoke on that, because the last debate grew a bit heated over that point.
Yes he did. It's not that you're limited to the Rear hex per se, but entering (or starting in) any enemy Front hex means you are Engaged, which means you can't use option (b) to attempt HTH, even if you started your turn Disengaged.

With option (b), if you do manage to avoid becoming engaged, and you can satisfy the requirements to attempt HTH and make it into the target hex without using more than half MA, then you can attempt HTH during movement. That could either be by entering via the Rear, or by the Side IF you satisfy some other condition, such as having higher MA than the target.

But in no case can you attempt HTH during the movement phase when engaged. Engaged figures must use option (o), on their adjDX during the action phase.
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Old 04-21-2021, 12:27 AM   #19
Acheron
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

Thank you all for the infos!
So at least I got the RAW right :)

I think I will use this houserule, it seems quick to resolve and offers interesting options to the defender:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Which is why I simplified X enters Y hex for all values of X and Y from wasps to men to 14 hex dragons to the following:
  • Occupant can attempt a DX roll to jump to an empty hex
  • Occupant can attempt to disbelieve the aggressor
  • Occupant can attempt to stop hit the aggressor
  • Or occupant can accept the overrun
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:09 AM   #20
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Is initiating HTH overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Yes he did. It's not that you're limited to the Rear hex per se, but entering (or starting in) any enemy Front hex means you are Engaged, which means you can't use option (b) to attempt HTH, even if you started your turn Disengaged.

With option (b), if you do manage to avoid becoming engaged, and you can satisfy the requirements to attempt HTH and make it into the target hex without using more than half MA, then you can attempt HTH during movement. That could either be by entering via the Rear, or by the Side IF you satisfy some other condition, such as having higher MA than the target.

But in no case can you attempt HTH during the movement phase when engaged. Engaged figures must use option (o), on their adjDX during the action phase.
So there it is. Many thanks for sharing that Skarg.

The pitfall regarding option (b) is really a semantic one. Here's hoping should SJ edit the HTH rules for future, he says "If you become engaged as you approach the target, you must stop and then wait for your DX turn to act to switch to option (o). Option (b) let's you make a HTH attack on the same turn you move only when you come in from the side or rear." I wish words to that effect had appeared in original Melee!
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