09-28-2013, 03:39 PM | #41 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
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Games and fiction are not much alike. Games have multiple partners whose interests often diverge. The characters have agendas of their own, not dictated by a director or an author. Everybody gets a saving throw; everybody has the right to duck, luck out, oppose, resist, etc. GURPS very explicitly does its best (or worst, if you see it that way) to ensure that you can't get "just works" abilities . . . even Cosmic can, at best, ensure a hit and avoid DR. The target still gets an active defense roll, still gets to absorb the badness with whatever FP or HP she bought, and still gets to break free, regenerate, or what-have-you. Similar efforts have been made to foil ultimate defenses, such as invulnerability, which are fine in auteur fiction but crummy in interactive, collaborative fiction. The game also has an implicit goose/gander rule, which means that NPCs enjoy similar benefits for the sake of plausibility and a good story, unless the GM expressly switches on mook rules to meet a different definition of "good story." In this discussion, the problem very much seems to be that players expect TK to work as in films and novels, which is quite broken for games. In my long experience running and playing RPGs (34 years and counting), I've found that players tend to hate it when it's the PCs who are lifted up, no saving throw, and told they cannot do anything but lose the fight. As a designer, my belief is that efforts to eliminate such situations should benefit NPCs equally.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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09-28-2013, 04:12 PM | #42 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
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09-28-2013, 04:13 PM | #43 | |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
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09-28-2013, 04:43 PM | #44 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
I have no idea. Will seems like it would be fine for a lot of characters but maybe it would be better just to stick to TK level and forget about the whole overstraining thing. Otherwise you end up with one and only one case where trying to use your TK can feedback and hurt you.
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09-29-2013, 12:25 PM | #45 | |||||
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
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Binding is a one time attack, you usually need not involve yourself with your Binding after you hit and entangled someone, Telekinesis however is NOT. Thus I really don't think a link accomplishes much, especially since Telekinesis can already make someone helpless by the usual takedown and pin, use enough strength and even a regular contest should be over in a few attempts at best. compartmmentalized mind or reduced time would allow it to happen quick enough to be highly cinematic too. My problem is, as stated before, that as written, the rules force pushing to the ground instead of lifting up though if someone wants to do this. This is basically the one problem of how to model the situation beyond the very sparse rules about it. Quote:
And as described with the comparison of taking hold of a foe who stands on bad ground, lifting him could paradoxically even make it easier for him to dodge. I think it is very unrealistic if being on shifty sand is worth than being in thin air. Quote:
To me it seems that if it is this route, a takedown should be rather "mandatory" in a way. Whether I am "lying" in the air or standing in the air, both situations should be about equally bad. Personally, I am inclined to not require a roll (but the full time to lift before the penalty applies) and balance this out by having anyone breaking free being able to immediately resume standing position as part of the breaking free manoeuvre (The reason being that it is hard to resist being lifted into the air opposed to being pressed against the ground). And lastly, as we play an around 450 point campaign with a vast array of exotic options available, opponents with high dodge score are not rare, comparable perhaps to some of the Vampire enemies from the monster hunter series. Quote:
As said before, binding to aid telekinesis makes sense, just, adding it in to simulate an effect that should be obtainable by high TK Strength, reduced time /altered timerate / compartmentalized mind (which would likely be better fits) seems unreasonable to me. Quote:
This reminds me of a small tangential question about retreat... For the purpose of dodging an area attack, does the defender have to use dodge and drop, thus going prone, or can he retreat, thus, just jumping aside avoiding to go to the ground? I did, so far, rule the latter, but as diving for cover is under dodge and drop, it seems possible to rule against that. |
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09-29-2013, 01:22 PM | #46 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
This kinda seems like one of those situations where things plainly are differently than expected. Since we consider that TK is basically invisible hands, then we can look at it as instead visible hands picking someone up. If the hands aren't big enough to engulf the person, they absolutely can dodge when held, just not well (the implied -4 does that from a normal grapple). It actually makes sense to me that it would be easier to dodge when you have a sturdy base (someone's hand picking you up) versus an unsturdy base (gravel combined with gravity).
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09-29-2013, 01:29 PM | #47 | ||
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
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09-29-2013, 01:56 PM | #48 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
In most fiction where characters use TK to render an opponent helpless that I've seen, the telekinetic uses their TK to slam them against a wall or something, "pinning" them with high TK strength vertically against that wall; I've seldom seen one hold another person in mid-air to remove their defenses.
Still, I'm kind of agreeing with those that feel being held in mid-air via TK should get the same penalty for bad footing. No footing seems to me to be really bad footing.
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09-29-2013, 06:21 PM | #49 |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
Also, Takedown in this case doesn't need to mean that they are pressed to the ground or even made horizontal. One could just rule that once the TKed guy has been lifted and has failed to resist the contest for a Takedown, they now suffer the penalties associated with being prone. The fact that they are in the air vertically and contorted is ruled as a special effect.
If the GM still thinks it's unrealistic, cut out the need to spend a turn lifting the victim and rule that it only takes two turns. First you grapple with TK then you attempt a "Takedown". If you succeed, the victim is held a foot off the ground and suffers the penalties of being prone and grappled (-4 to dodge and can't retreat). |
09-29-2013, 08:36 PM | #50 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?
The penalty for being held with nothing to push off of should be similar to being in free fall without the nausea effects. That's -5 to DX, and (rounding up), -3 to Parry and Block. Since the free fall skill also impacts HT, that makes it a flat -3 to Active Defenses.
That makes "suspended in midair" like this on the Posture Table: Posture Attack Defense Target Movement Suspended -5 -3 Normal None Lying Down -4 -3 -2 1 yard/second So it's a bit worse than lying down for attacking, equivalent for defending, you're no smaller a target than you were standing up, and have no purchase so you can't move. The Free Fall skill helps you buy this off; it'd be somewhat legit, I think, to treat this as a technique rather than a skill, since the only purpose of Free Fall is to buy off a penalty, much like Ground Fighting. Make it a Hard Technique like ground fighting.
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grappling, telekinesis |
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