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Old 10-04-2020, 11:41 AM   #21
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

That is a 1.6m extension plus retraction (a 0.8m extension and a 0.8m retraction). In truth, most punches probably do not have full extension and retration, but 1.2m is probably good for an average person.
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Old 10-04-2020, 12:39 PM   #22
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
If a person can put all of his body into a two-handed weapon strike, why can't the same person achieve the same effect by just striking with two weapons instead of holding onto one?
I think the conceptual quibble here is that 1H weapon damage already assumes full mass behind that single weapon, so for 2 simultaneous hits you're only going to get 50% mass each.

I realize this is wandering from the striking ST component to the lifting ST component, but B15 gives the impression that 2H output is double 1H output (BL lift overhead 1s 1h v 2xBL lift overhead 1s2h) and that with proper training 2H is actually MORE than the sum of it's parts (1 hand can lift 2xBL overhead in 2 seconds so 2 hands can lift 4xBL in 2 seconds... but 2 hands can ALSO lift 8x BL in 4 seconds)

EG if you have ST 8 like 5'6" 118lbs Dai Blackthorn, per B17's table BL13 lets you overhead press a max of 104 pounds.

I'm figuring the added time might just be prepping yourself (getting in proper alignment, psyching up, etc) because it's probably easier to press something like that relatively quickly so there's less time under tension. Taking 8 seconds on the concentric would be crazy-fatiguing.

Maybe it's like pausing between lift components, like doing a snatch motion first to clean it to shoulders, then pausing to take a breath or two, then doing a dip and push-press to get it up?

But anyway, that's diverting from the point, which is that the 1-second output of lifting ST seems to be x2 if you're using 2 hands.

That's based on pure arm strength alone I think (which I think technical grappling grasps, using 0.5x or 1.0x) whereas going beyond that over 2-4 seconds is probably using core muscles a lot more to supplement the arms.

But the core and stuff can supplement them in quick-time too... but there should be problems with doing that simultaneously and getting 100% returns.

Maybe if we could just always add slam damage to weapon attacks but you would need to choose how to divide whatever damage points you roll to whatever DWA attack components prior to rolling to hit with them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
you don't miraculously lose power just because you connect with an enemy with more points than one
You do on a 'per point' basis even if the total power output is the same. That's especially important when splitting DWA between two foes, or determining basic damage on a given point for surpassing DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
GURPS does not reduce your falling damage if you decide to fall flat, as opposed to landing on a limb or something
The total damage no, but the damage per location, CERTAINLY: B431 'Hit Location from a Fall' implies that whatever damage the limb takes is subtracted from whatever damage the torso takes (the torso being the presumed part which is hit after the limb is crippled, since it would have the same crushing multipliers)
If the injury is to an extremity or a limb, do not ignore injury in excess of that required to cripple it.
Instead, subtract the full amount from HP!
For example, if I inflicted 10 crushing to an arm (which takes 6 HP to cripple) by not ignoring the 4 HP beyond it, I am implying a 10-6=4 HP injury to the torso.

This would matter more for "Falls and Armor" purposes. If we look pack the confusing 'not innate DR' thing (so is non-innate a limitation built into gadgets somewhere?) what we do know is that the blunt trauma rules matter here.

I think this means that if you fall and take 10 crushing on the leg but you have leg armor with DR 10, you only take 2 HP and your leg is fine? Kinda strange...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
no reason for it to reduce it if you slam into enemy with two weapons instead of one.
It is worth noting there's a bit more stability when holding a single object than two. This is why the record for barbell pressing is always more than the sum of simultaneous dumbbell presses. So I could see that being a bit higher.

The problem is more that DWA could match the damage output of a 1H hit, when conceptually you can only really lean 1 shoulder into the punch. Doing so inherently pulls the otherback so it cant commit the same kind of weight. It's the 'twisting force'.

When you generate forward momentum it's going to dissipate for whatever limb hits first so there's less momentum to carry over to the 2nd limb... and if they really do hit at exactly the same time then it's still going to run out faster as the force splits between them.

This only matters if the limbs are strong enough to actually transfer all that momentum though, of course. I think a lot of people hold back to avoid injuring themselves so that might inherently limit putting all your weight into one attack anyway. Think of how few people can do stuff like one-arm pushups, for example.

It should maybe be possible to focus all your weight in 1 hand but with a high rate of injury potential for most.

Last edited by Plane; 10-04-2020 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 10-04-2020, 12:51 PM   #23
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
That is a 1.6m extension plus retraction (a 0.8m extension and a 0.8m retraction). In truth, most punches probably do not have full extension and retration, but 1.2m is probably good for an average person.
Ah, I see, both directions. Of course only the outbound speed matters for damage. Also, it may be relevant that most of the time a punch is not starting right from the torso but 4-10 inches out.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 10-04-2020 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 10-04-2020, 12:56 PM   #24
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Of course, but total distance matters for rapid punches.
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:13 PM   #25
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Timing is something to consider here...

B417
If you aim both attacks at a single opponent, he defends at -1 against them, as his attention is divided!
B370's explanation of Rapid Strike, OTOH, does not give the "divided attention" penalty. Nor would there be that penalty if using Extra Attack, whose baseline use (sans Multi-Strike enhancement added in powers) doesn't even allow the reuse of a limb, making it resemble DWA more than RS.

Nor does AOA double give that penalty. DWA seems unique in giving the -1 to defenses due to divided attention. That's got to be the TIMING, right?

DWA very much seems to resemble P166 "overwhelm" except only half as good, probably because 2 attackers divide your attention more than 1 attacker with 2 weapons. 1 weapon is sort of 'waiting' for the other.

DWA seems to have option to trade "can attack two foes" for -1 to defenses. Presumably of equal value. More like two techniques in one, really, except you can buy it up together. Not sure if this means RS can only target 1 foe?

The -3 to attack giving -2 to defend is a better deal than what you usually get for Deceptive Attack. Especially if using +1 for same source (-2 gives -2) or +2 for same power (-1 gives -2) since it's "easier to coordinate related powers" (sadly it seems normal combat can't benefit from that)

Unlike Deceptive Attack you can also buy this as a technique, which makes it compete more with something like Counterattack.

Rapid Strike requires "a ready weapon" for the 2nd attack, and may be assumed to imply sequential attacks with a single weapon. That's probably why there's no 'divided attention', because by the time the 2nd half begins, the 1st half is resolved.

Yet there's not actually anything preventing you from using 2 different weapons for a Rapid Strike... and when you do so, there's still -6 to hit.

Rapid Strike of course has rules which only apply to it and not DWA (B93: half for TBAM, B357: half penalty for 1 FP via Flurry of Blows) further complicating things...

Given that Rapid Strike can represent "I thrust-impale with my sword, then pull my sword back, and thrust-impale with it a second time" I see no conceptual problem with "I don't need to divide my weight between the thrusts" like I would with simultaneously (split attention) thrusting 2 swords forward at the same time.
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