[LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

What would a “rich mercenary” be doing wearing it?

Improvising something to protect his forearms, because his suit only covers the body and head, to protect from firearms? One was bought at the beginning of a career, based on the theory that heavy armour for vitals was most important, the other is field-expedient gear meant for melee once he had been in a few. I added the bracer as an afterthought, as a cheap, non-restrictive piece of gear that would protect the arm on a 1-3 on a 1d and was thus likely to have proved its value in combat.

Why are US Marines and other troops armouring their vehicles with field-expedient such as welded scrap metal? Or before the issue of the DAP, wrapping vests around their arms while manning machine guns?

In any case, are you arguing that the existence of suits of armour that did not cover the whole body is a myth? That warriors never left their arms or legs mostly uncovered?

Going by extant late suits, at the height of gunpowder weapons but before abandoning armour entirely, that's simply not true. In fact, most such examples have no arm protection at all, other than the shoulders. Would that have been better?

If it helps, imagine a large set of bracelets.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Why are US Marines and other troops armouring their vehicles with field-expedient such as welded scrap metal? Or before the issue of the DAP, wrapping vests around their arms while manning machine guns?

We have lots of evidence for soldiers in the last century making improvised armour for their vehicles. We have very, very little for earlier soldiers making improvised armour for themselves. In most times and places, soldiers who couldn't afford properly made armour did without or used the clothing and armour which was available for protection (such as using a cape as a shield, stuffing their kerchief inside their hat to stop sword cuts, or draping haubergeons over a sick comrade to protect him from arrows). To say why this was the case would be a thesis' worth of work, and I know that you believe that its contrary to human nature for people to do creative work for free :)

Originally Posted by Icelander

In any case, are you arguing that the existence of suits of armour that did not cover the whole body is a myth? That warriors never left their arms or legs mostly uncovered?

I said that the combination of shoulder and forearm protection, but not hand, elbow, or upper arm is very unlikely historically. The only example I know of in three thousand years is the Dendra Panoply. This suggests that it wasn't a good idea in most historical contexts. In my games, non-player characters act as if they are living in the world that the rules imperfectly reflect, not the world that the rules precisely describe. But even in a game, a character in full armour with no protection against Arm Locks may regret it soon.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I said that the combination of shoulder and forearm protection, but not hand, elbow, or upper arm is very unlikely historically. The only example I know of in three thousand years is the Dendra Panoply. This suggests that it wasn't a good idea in most historical contexts. In my games, non-player characters act as if they are living in the world that the rules imperfectly reflect, not the world that the rules precisely describe. But even in a game, a character in full armour with no protection against Arm Locks may regret it soon.

Optimising according to the rules, every warrior with any kind of armour at TL4 would have articulated elbow protection. It's so cheap and light, yet so effective. In reality, however, not every warrior did. I'm trying to avoid having every suit be optimised according to the quirks of the design system, as opposed to just the ones canny PC and maybe veteran NPCs with pragmatic mind-sets wear.

A bracer that extends over the outer elbow is providing only partial protection. How much is fairly complex to determine. In any case, it is clearly not the equivalent of full protection for the hit location, because that's what is represented by a couter, with vambrace partially extending over it and maybe a rondel too.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Optimising according to the rules, every warrior with any kind of armour at TL4 would have articulated elbow protection. It's so cheap and light, yet so effective. In reality, however, not every warrior did. I'm trying to avoid having every suit be optimised according to the quirks of the design system, as opposed to just the ones canny PC and maybe veteran NPCs with pragmatic mind-sets wear.

A bracer that extends over the outer elbow is providing only partial protection. How much is fairly complex to determine. In any case, it is clearly not the equivalent of full protection for the hit location, because that's what is represented by a couter, with vambrace partially extending over it and maybe a rondel too.

In this case its the reverse: a design quirk of GURPS encourages armour with the forearm but not the elbow.

I would represent a bazuband as a Plate Elbow/Forearm which gives +2 to attack Chinks or Gaps (see: Sliding Rivets) and which doesn't protect against joint locks. An articulated harness for the whole arm would have neither vulnerability. Note that these were normally worn with a short-sleeved armour protecting the rest of the arm, but its possible that they were sometimes worn without other arm protection.

You set a great store on realism and technical accuracy. Are you serious about that, or do you just want some buzzwords and details to impress people who know nothing? The later works well for writers, especially those of techno-thrillers, but its not to my taste.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

In this case its the reverse: a design quirk of GURPS encourages armour with the forearm but not the elbow.

Forearm protection is 25% weight and cost for 1-3 on a 1d protection, which might also be expressed as 8.33% per 1 on the 1d. Elbow protection is 5% for 4 on an 1d, which is significantly more efficient. Compare to Upper Arm and Shoulder, with 10% each for their 5 and 6 on a 1d and it becomes clear that the Elbow is by far the cheapest and least burdensome area of the arm to armour effectively.

The Knee comes out even better, with 5% for its 4 on the 1d against 13.33% per one on a 1d for the shins and 22.5% for the thighs.

Under GURPS rules, there is no penalty or extra craftsmanship cost for including perfect knee or elbow protection along with a bracer or either greaves or tassets, beyond the +20% to bracer cost and weight and ca +10% to leg armour. The articulation costs nothing extra. It also gives no penalty to athletics and acrobatic feats to have inflexible armour over your joints.

Given these benefits, I'm inclined to regard this as an unwarranted quirk of the armour design system and cast a gimlet eye at attempts to leverage it.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I would represent a bazuband as a Plate Elbow/Forearm which gives +2 to attack Chinks or Gaps (see: Sliding Rivets) and which doesn't protect against joint locks.

Agreed as far as it goes, but I find it implausible that while using the arm to attack and defend, there is no chance except critical hits that the unarmoured inner elbow or the sides of the elbow are hit. I wouldn't give the bazuband more than 1-3, at best 1-4, odds on a 1d of protecting the elbow.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

An articulated harness for the whole arm would have neither vulnerability. Note that these were normally worn with a short-sleeved armour protecting the rest of the arm, but its possible that they were sometimes worn without other arm protection.

In game terms, short-sleeved armour might protect the Shoulders and not the Upper Arms, because they don't reach all the way down to the elbow. Unless the sleeves overlap the bracers slightly, I wouldn't allow it to count as total arm protection. I might be persuaded to count a sleeve that reached almost to the elbow as partial Upper Arm protection.

Hitting the Upper Arm is -5, so taking advantage of a gap there would require fairly precise timing and great accuracy. So it's not as if the arm is unprotected.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

You set a great store on realism and technical accuracy.

Realistically, articulated gauntlets and joints will always cost more than the equivalent amount of material somewhere less complex. And no amount of craftsmanship can make them as comfortable and free as wearing nothing at all over those areas. Even when they don't impose a penalty for common battlefield tasks, they do for certain athletic feats. No one runs the 100 m as fast while wearing sollerets, plate greaves, poleyns and tassets as he does while wearing shorts and sneakers, even if the weight is well below his BL.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Are you serious about that, or do you just want some buzzwords and details to impress people who know nothing? The later works well for writers, especially those of techno-thrillers, but its not to my taste.

Well, I have plenty of unrealistic things in many of my campaigns. I just want them to be plausible, in the sense that if magic could do X, real-world physics would ensue, so Y.

If gaming the armour design system, almost every character will have elbow and knee protection. I don't think that this describes almost every combatant at all periods in history.

A bracer made to protect the sword hand and to parry with an unarmed skill is effective, under the game rules*, and it seems to better suit the aesthetics of Greco-Roman-esque warriors, for example. Not to mention some gladiators. I realise that the subject of bracers (bronze or leather) for Greek warriors is controversial, but from the limited pictorial evidence, I'd support wrist support going a short distance up along the arm, stopping short of the elbow, before I'd support bazuband-like ones.

*If not as effective as one that also protects the elbow.

[Kalzazz]

Its just el cheapo Ebay Special LARP armor, but at least for LARP purposes the shortsleeve upper arm armor combined with the forearm and elbow and lower upper arm armor combined did an admirable job of preventing shots in that area

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...amtgardpic.jpg

[Icelander]

Let's try a suit of armour actually in use in my campaign:

These are Thayan koursores, light cataphracts who carry bows, lances and swords. They are meant to function as heavy cavalry, but their swift horses, relatively light armour and superior training also makes them able to match skirmish cavalry at scouting and screening duties when necessary.

Skullcap: Light plate++ khud (covers Skull, x0.20; +8 lbs., +$500, +2 DR; + Cloth Padding, +1.2 lbs., +$10, +1 DR). Weight 4.4 lbs.; Cost $410; DR 5.
Aventail: Light mail (covers Face(R) and Neck, x0.075). Weight 0.9 lbs.; Cost $37.5; DR 3/1.
Face-mask: Light plate mask (covers F(F), x0.025). Weight 0.2 lbs.; Cost $25; DR 3.
Spaulders: Medium segmented plate* (covers Shoulders(F), x0.05). Weight 0.9 lbs.; Cost $45; DR 4.
Cuirass: Mail and plates (covers Chest(F), x0.375; Hardened Steel +1 DR). Weight 7.5 lbs.; Cost $2,625; DR 6/5.
Shield: Metal Small Shield, Light** (hanging off the shoulder, covers Upper Arm, left, uses Shield (Guige); +1 lbs.; +$10). Weight 3.25 lbs.; Cost: $130; Cover DR 7.
Haubergeon: Light mail (covers Abdomen, Chest(R) and Shoulders, x0.635). Weight 7.62 lbs.; Cost $317.5; DR 3/1.
Fauld: Light segmented plate (covers Abdomen(F), except Groin). Weight 1.2 lbs.; Cost $60; DR 3.
Tassets: Light segmented plate (covers Thighs(F) and Knees(F), x0.25). Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $150; DR 3.
Bazubands: Light segmented plate (covers Forearms and Elbows***, x0.275). Weight 3.6 lbs.; Cost $180; DR 3.
Boots: Riding Boots, medium leather (covers Feet and Shins on 1 on 1d) Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $80; DR 2/1*.

Total Weight: 34.97 lbs.; Total Cost: $4,050.

Edit: I've changed to helmet to plate, according to a suggestion by Lancewholelot, and added a shield mounted to the shoulder/upper arm, which I initially forgot to include.
Re-edit: Changed the cuirass to mail-and-plate, in light of Dan's comments.

*I use Dan's modified weight for segmented plate and scale and his modified cost for mail and plates. Without these, the Armour Table doesn't make much sense and segmented plate goes from being an intergral part of TL4 suits to being poor TL2 armour that inexplicably continued in use.
**I add +2 DR to metal shields, in addition to reducing weight by -25%.
*** Partial coverage, 1-3 on an 1d.

[Lancewholelot]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Skullcap: Light segmented plate* pot helm w/hinged visor (covers Skull and Face(F), x0.25). Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $150; DR 3.

Was segmented plate used for cost reasons? I would think that a plate skull cap would be the standard assumption at TL3 and beyond. Not for GURPS LT optimization reasons mind you, but from a historical perspective, it would be much better at keeping one's skull convex rather than concave. Protective plates mounted to a supportive framework would be Low Tech's Spangenhelms by default.

[Lancewholelot]

And I agree that visors, as well as other helmet additions, should have a more basic standard, rather than be based on a percentage of the helmet they are added to.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Icelander

**Actually, I really want to make TL3 lamellar an intermediate step between scale and segmented plate

There is no such thing as TL3 lamellar. Historically, lamellar gets superseded by mail-and-plates.