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Old 08-29-2012, 11:09 PM   #11
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Limited joint flexibility?

Also, you can't wear even two layers of straw unless you come up with some grand-guard deal. It's rigid.
Joint flexibility above the normal penalty for thickness would do it. As would bad weight dispersal. Are those really so problematic compared to other combinations though?

Right, right. This hasn't been a good day for my rules accuracy. Replace that with two layers of some variety of flexible cloth or leather on top of straw.

Last edited by Sindri; 08-29-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:01 AM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
I'm surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of grand-guards on the forums given the obvious appeal of two layers of rigid armour.
One thing limiting interest in this is that many more people play LT games with magic than without magic. Magical enhancements make far more sense than trying to wear TL4 sports gear in actual battles.

Another is that if you do want the extra detail of full LT armor you probably want the new Hit Locations and armor rules (Like the Abdomen) that come with it. Fully implementing LT can leave your heavy armored character _more_ vulnerable than before.

You don't need the grand-guard agasint random arrows and it won't protect your Abdomen in melee so it's probably just dead weight. Gurps has had people going for your gauntlets instead of your Torso armor from the beginning too.
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:41 PM   #13
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
One thing limiting interest in this is that many more people play LT games with magic than without magic. Magical enhancements make far more sense than trying to wear TL4 sports gear in actual battles.

Another is that if you do want the extra detail of full LT armor you probably want the new Hit Locations and armor rules (Like the Abdomen) that come with it. Fully implementing LT can leave your heavy armored character _more_ vulnerable than before.

You don't need the grand-guard agasint random arrows and it won't protect your Abdomen in melee so it's probably just dead weight. Gurps has had people going for your gauntlets instead of your Torso armor from the beginning too.
Huh. It seems like magic would actually make it more interesting given the presence of stronger races, lightening spells, each layer being able to be individually enchanted and the greater usefulness of higher DR when mages with missiles spells and magical monsters are around. I know it's made me pay more attention to things like really heavy armour combinations.
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #14
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Huh. It seems like magic would actually make it more interesting given the presence of stronger races, lightening spells, each layer being able to be individually enchanted and the greater usefulness of higher DR when mages with missiles spells and magical monsters are around. I know it's made me pay more attention to things like really heavy armour combinations.
<shrug> I haven't seen it. The magical monsters tend to deprecate armor all together. That ST 90 dragon is very much going to shift the focus to not getting hit. Time to Dodge.

I probably wouldn't let you individually enchant each layer either. If you could it would be possible to have infinite layers of DR0 cloth enchanted to DR1+ on an individual basis. I don'tr know if I'd try and explain why it didn't work or just swat you with my 1st ed DMG a la Dell'Orto but you're not doing it in my game.

You also seem to eb ignoring my point that grand-guards only bolster the torso and not the Abdomen or any other location. That's why you normally only saw them in tournaments where people were practising Lance(Sport) and will chivalrously only aim at your upper torso.

If anyone in a real fight sees your character with a grand-guard they will simply target another hit location and the loss of +1 Parry and Dodge is going to make that easier than usual.

Oh, and as to Missile Spells the mage seeing the overly armored knight is going to switch to Lighting and ignore that metallic armor. Jet and Melee Spells usually ignore all armor. Time to Dodge again.

Add in a apck horse to carry your armor when you're not wearing it and an assisstant to get dressed in it and this just isn't adventuring gear.
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:36 PM   #15
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug> I haven't seen it. The magical monsters tend to deprecate armor all together. That ST 90 dragon is very much going to shift the focus to not getting hit. Time to Dodge.
Well yeah it depends on the specifics. Personally I'd prefer a tactical paradigm where being heavily armoured is a reasonable choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I probably wouldn't let you individually enchant each layer either. If you could it would be possible to have infinite layers of DR0 cloth enchanted to DR1+ on an individual basis. I don'tr know if I'd try and explain why it didn't work or just swat you with my 1st ed DMG a la Dell'Orto but you're not doing it in my game.
I don't see how limiting it to armour does any more damage than DMG swatting. Alternatives can be constructed instead of only allowing armour to be enchanted but I'd never limit someone to only one enchantment per location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You also seem to eb ignoring my point that grand-guards only bolster the torso and not the Abdomen or any other location. That's why you normally only saw them in tournaments where people were practising Lance(Sport) and will chivalrously only aim at your upper torso.

If anyone in a real fight sees your character with a grand-guard they will simply target another hit location and the loss of +1 Parry and Dodge is going to make that easier than usual.
I wasn't sure what you were saying about hit locations. Grand-guards aren't limited to the torso though.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Oh, and as to Missile Spells the mage seeing the overly armored knight is going to switch to Lighting and ignore that metallic armor. Jet and Melee Spells usually ignore all armor. Time to Dodge again.
It doesn't really matter. If wearing armour reduces the mages choice of missiles spells in the rare circumstances that he casts them from anything he would cast against an unarmoured guy to lightning spells then an advantage has been gained. It works similarly for Jet and Melee spells.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Add in a apck horse to carry your armor when you're not wearing it and an assisstant to get dressed in it and this just isn't adventuring gear.
The pack horse can be remedied by magic if desired and generally ones adventuring companions can help with the armour.
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Old 08-30-2012, 06:53 PM   #16
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Grand-guards

[QUOTE=Sindri;1433290

I don't see how limiting it to armour does any more damage than DMG swatting. Alternatives can be constructed instead of only allowing armour to be enchanted but I'd never limit someone to only one enchantment per location.

[/QUOTE]

I never said that I'd limit characters to one Enchantent per location. I'm limiting stacking of the same Enchantment. You already can't stack multiple +1 ST items. No stacking of DR Enchantments is a very siimilar proinciple.

Having reviewed LT after supper I would simply consider the 2nd option for Jousting Armor (i.e stacking multiple plates) to be a case of the Heavy Plate rule. 2 layers of plate for double the thickness and weigth only gives +2DR. That's the same as if you'd made one plate twice as thick.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:34 PM   #17
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I probably wouldn't let you individually enchant each layer either. If you could it would be possible to have infinite layers of DR0 cloth enchanted to DR1+ on an individual basis. I don'tr know if I'd try and explain why it didn't work or just swat you with my 1st ed DMG a la Dell'Orto but you're not doing it in my game.
Enchantments that add plus-shaped DR bonuses are bad design anyway, exactly because it is as easy and cheap to add +1 DR to light DR 0 clothing as to heavy DR 6-or-7 plate armour.

That's the cost of being obessed with the rules being simple. You're going to run into a lot of such cases, compared to if DR-improving Enchantments were in some way based on the natural underlying DR of the armour being Enchanted.

A simple rule is to have two Enchantments.

One is fairly cheap (maybe a bit cheaper than the RAW one) but can't improve DR to more than double the natural value of the armour, thus if you have DR 4 armour, you cannot put more than a +4 Enchantment into it.

The other Enchantment is very expensive, and does not stack with the former. It increases the DR of the suit of clothing by +1, and works on anything that covers an appreciable fraction of the body. so that's what you use if you want to add DR to normal clothing.

As I said, you cannot get anything without letting go of the obsession with hypersimplistic always-linear rules. Unless you accept GM fiat as a suitable alternative to good design.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:57 PM   #18
gjc8
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
I wasn't sure what you were saying about hit locations. Grand-guards aren't limited to the torso though.
It seems like they can only go on top of Plate, and Plate can't be used to protect the Abdomen.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:42 PM   #19
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I never said that I'd limit characters to one Enchantent per location. I'm limiting stacking of the same Enchantment. You already can't stack multiple +1 ST items. No stacking of DR Enchantments is a very siimilar proinciple.
Yes I got what you were saying. I'm sorry for not spelling out that I was talking about Fortify enchantments.

I can't really agree about the stacking though. +1 ST is something that applies to the character so multiple items don't provide additional bonuses. +1 DR is something that applies to the armour. Stacking would be trying to enchant it multiple times.

This is a case where GURPS's vagueness with clothing is problematic but clearly eventually the clothes layering should produce a real layer which is subject to the normal rules so we can at least reduce the number of clothing layers from infinite to finite but large. Yes the wording has an issue. That happens sometimes with magic.

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Originally Posted by gjc8 View Post
It seems like they can only go on top of Plate, and Plate can't be used to protect the Abdomen.
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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
grand-guards only bolster the torso and not the Abdomen or any other location.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:59 PM   #20
gjc8
 
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Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You also seem to eb ignoring my point that grand-guards only bolster the torso and not the Abdomen or any other location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjc8 View Post
It seems like they can only go on top of Plate, and Plate can't be used to protect the Abdomen.
I'm well aware that I was to some extent repeating what Fred said, but you responded to Fred with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Grand-guards aren't limited to the torso though.
It's true that grand-guards aren't limited to Torso only, as far as I can tell. But my read is that they can only be mounted above plate. So they can only go on a location that can be covered by plate. Outside of the Torso, that includes all the limbs as well as the Head (but you should probably use the rules for great helms instead).

Indeed, it appears that the historical term grand guard was applied to pieces of tournament armor designed to protect the upper part of the left arm, as well as the chest.

But, as Low Tech explains, not all armors can cover the Abdomen. It's a bit unclear, but it certainly seems like Plate is not a legal choice for the Abdomen.

So, while it's true that grand-guards are not (according to Low Tech) limited to the Chest/Torso, it is impossible to protect the Abdomen with a grand-guard.

Of course, you can still get DR 21 by layering DR 6 (5 +1 hardened steel) Heavy Mail underneath DR 15 (14 heavy plate +1 hardened steel) Brigandine/Segmented Plate.
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