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Old 10-05-2024, 04:42 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

Tactical Shooting page 12 has rules for holding long-arms closer to the body (at the hip) which page 13 explains gives you defensive benefits - you get a bonus to retain weapon and enemies have a penalty to parry you.

Plus beyond that I get the sense maybe it also influences what hex the weapon occupies - ie who you're actually in parrying range of.

I guess my question is - what happens when you're holding a gun this close to your body, but it actually is raised to the shoulder?

I noticed this happening in a scene in The Old Man where a guy approaches a door while holding his rifle - you see him switch to a one-handed grip to free his hand to open the door, and then you see him pull the gun backward.


https://youtu.be/To_d1a9Yn_I

This actually makes a lot of sense because then obviously the door won't hit the tip of the rifle as you're opening the door, it's harder for someone behind the door to reach out and grab the gun, etc...

But mechanically what differences do you think this would make for combat?
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Old 10-05-2024, 05:45 PM   #2
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

In the clip, the rifle isn't held the way I thought of when I read "raised to the shoulder". It's more or less the same as the hip position (not braced against the shoulder to absorb recoil, no cheek weld, no sight position, etc). So I'd just treat it as shooting from the hip.

If you really wanted a distinction, you might give that hold a minor penalty to skill just for the apparent awkwardness. Might be painful when that carry handle catches the shooter in the chin on recoil.
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Old 10-05-2024, 08:00 PM   #3
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

If he fired from that position, I'd just call it shooting one-handed. Maybe give the Bracing benefit for having the stock in contact with the forearm, but no Aim bonus obviusly.
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Old 10-05-2024, 08:04 PM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

That position could be argued to give +1 Bulk (it essentially results in using it as though it had no stock) for purposes of engaging at close quarters. It looks like it would allow for sighting using the barrel, but lack of actual sights is going to mean lowered Acc (in addition to the -1 Acc for not using the stock). That's all probably being pretty lenient; I wouldn't be surprised to learn such a position would be an absolutely horrible idea - it looks primed for limp-wristing, for a general -1 Guns and -1 Malf (see Gangsta Shooting, TS32-33). Hollywood typically isn't known for good gun handling, after all (also, the fact he keeps that weird stance after opening the door seems off - he looks like he has enough time and space to transition back to the more proper stance he was using at the beginning of the clip). All that said, I'm by no means an expert.
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Old 10-06-2024, 09:04 AM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
In the clip, the rifle isn't held the way I thought of when I read "raised to the shoulder".
It's more or less the same as the hip position (not braced against the shoulder to absorb recoil, no cheek weld, no sight position, etc).
So I'd just treat it as shooting from the hip.

If you really wanted a distinction, you might give that hold a minor penalty to skill just for the apparent awkwardness. Might be painful when that carry handle catches the shooter in the chin on recoil.
Yeah that's probably why as soon as the door opens he returns his hand to brace the gun so that wouldn't happen if he fired?

I'm just trying to think benefit-wise, surely there's a reason one would do this as compared to just keeping the gun at hip-level, either in terms of aiming or at least intimidation factor?

When we open a door we're prone to looking at eye level, perhaps missing a gun held at hip level, so if we wanted someone to notice a gun aimed at them, keeping the gun elevated in the eyeline would be an asset in intimidating someone you surprise into compliance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
If he fired from that position, I'd just call it shooting one-handed. Maybe give the Bracing benefit for having the stock in contact with the forearm, but no Aim bonus obviusly.
That's a great point about the forearm-stock contact. Side-shooting would have that unique benefit with a rifle that makes it more sensible than side-shooting with a pistol!

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Hollywood typically isn't known for good gun handling, after all (also, the fact he keeps that weird stance after opening the door seems off -
he looks like he has enough time and space to transition back to the more proper stance he was using at the beginning of the clip).
It's like he's got tunnel vision keeping the barrel trained at the guy's face at close-quarters, even a small adjustment like rotating the gun 90 degrees into the usual upwards position could be seen as some kinda distraction from this focus, perhaps?
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Old 10-06-2024, 09:40 AM   #6
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm just trying to think benefit-wise, surely there's a reason one would do this as compared to just keeping the gun at hip-level, either in terms of aiming or at least intimidation factor?
Might be marginally faster to return to a normal grip, possibly below GURPS mechanical resolution.
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Old 10-06-2024, 10:55 AM   #7
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm just trying to think benefit-wise, surely there's a reason one would do this as compared to just keeping the gun at hip-level, either in terms of aiming or at least intimidation factor?
I think it's far more likely that the director just thought it looked cool.
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Old 10-06-2024, 11:58 AM   #8
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Might be marginally faster to return to a normal grip, possibly below GURPS mechanical resolution.
This would be my best guess, which is why I found it weird that he doesn't transition back to a normal grip as soon as the door is open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I think it's far more likely that the director just thought it looked cool.
Yeah, this is probably it. Again, Hollywood and guns.
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Old 10-06-2024, 05:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This would be my best guess, which is why I found it weird that he doesn't transition back to a normal grip as soon as the door is open.
I don't think there's more than a second left in the video clip at that point, and that's the second where the gun being nominally ready to cover the doorway matters. If it didn't, there'd be no reason for the position at all.

Also, while it's hard to tell in the tiny time window, I think there's actually someone almost immediately inside the room, too close for pushing the gun forward to be a good idea.
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Old 10-06-2024, 06:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think there's more than a second left in the video clip at that point, and that's the second where the gun being nominally ready to cover the doorway matters. If it didn't, there'd be no reason for the position at all.

Also, while it's hard to tell in the tiny time window, I think there's actually someone almost immediately inside the room, too close for pushing the gun forward to be a good idea.
Yeah, there's a guy in there who appears to be in the middle of walking out when the gunman opens the door. But when he places his offhand back on the barrel and steps forward, he could have just as readily transitioned back into a normal grip without stepping forward, leaving the tip of the barrel more-or-less the same place as it is after the step forward, giving himself a bit more room between himself and the other guy, and actually shouldering the rifle. In GURPS terms, what we see is him taking a Ready to change back to a two-handed stance while maintaining the +1 Bulk and the likely -1 each to Guns and Malf, when the same Ready would have sufficed to go back to a proper stance. And if using a ruling that allows it to be done more quickly than a full Ready in this situation, I really don't see it taking any more time to reshoulder the rifle and get the offhand back on it than it takes to just get the offhand back on it alone. But I may be overanalyzing.
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