Why is Flight so cheap?

[Varyon]

I think the relationship to Basic Speed is more a thematic thing. We often associate flying things with fast reflexes, and there's also the fact that most flying creatures have pretty pitiful ground move. Switching to basing it on Basic Move would probably work fine - building creatures/characters who move slowly on the ground and quickly in the air would simply be a case of buying down Basic Move and then buying up Air Move.

Personally, I think the issue is more the other Movement Advantages being too expensive than Flight being too cheap, but that's arguably a to-may-to vs. to-mah-to situation.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Default flight is not what birds have.

Have you got any examples of Flight enhances to make it quiet? Because standard super flight doesn't make any of the noises you've decided it should, and we've got stats for it.

Wouldn't that be Flight with the No or Low Signature enhancement, for silent or quiet flight respectively?

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

But Basic Speed is more "how fast can I react to something?" for turn order and dodging while Move is "how quickly do I move?" with the latter normally derived from the former. Making a movement power based on multiplying the former only makes sense if you assume people are always going to stick with the basic values their DX/HT gives them, just like if Fright Checks had been based on IQ instead of Will or if slams were based on raw ST instead of on HP.

Dropping Basic Move a few steps barely scrapes the Disadvantage Limit except in a campaign where Flight would be too expensive to use anyway.

Basic Move is also based on Basic Speed to though. They are different scales of Movement, one for land and one for air. Although admittedly it is odd that water based move is based on Basic Move instead of Speed, so you may have a point there.

As for Dropping your Basic Move, it still needs to pass the GM eye. If a player is only reducing their Move because they have flight then I wouldn't allow it. I've never actually seen a player reduce their move, it's a very nice thing to have on the battlefield, (if they did I assume they'd want to play the big slow guy) so I would be very suspicious about suddenly being willing to part with 2 or 3 levels because this time they can fly.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Wouldn't that be Flight with the No or Low Signature enhancement, for silent or quiet flight respectively?

That's what Peter Knutsen claims, but I see no evidence for that usage.

Low/No Signature can be applied to a variety of abilities, but is only relevant if the ability is at least one of obvious or supernaturally traceable, of which we're only talking about the former.

Peter Knutsen's allegation is that as an active ability Flight must by default have an audible signature that needs to be suppressed for it to be quiet. I submit that as far as I know there's no rule anywhere saying that all active abilities are noisy. (There is a rule saying all Innate Attacks are noisy unless modified.)

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Peter Knutsen's allegation is that as an active ability Flight must by default have an audible signature that needs to be suppressed for it to be quiet. I submit that as far as I know there's no rule anywhere saying that all active abilities are noisy. (There is a rule saying all Innate Attacks are noisy unless modified.)

I myself was sure that all actively used Advantages had a clear signature, I went and checked some books and found I was actually wrong.
From Powers P.113

Unless a specific advantage description states otherwise, any attack without the Low or No Signature enhancement (p. 103) has obvious effects. Most other advantages lack obvious effects except when given the Visible limitation (p. 112).

[Tomsdad]

The problem is how nosy flight in abstract is can't really default to a set noise level, as the noise created by flight is massively dependent on how flight is achieved.

Am I a bird man who can fly and the most noise I make is a few wing slaps as I take off or gain altitude, or am I cyborg with jet engines.

I agree low / no signature doesn't really work (it's also pretty explicitly tied to innate attacks).

I'd go with nuisance effect limitation prised according to how much of impact it has, and looking at the power modifier as well as guide.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

The problem is how nosy flight in abstract is can't really default to a set noise level, as the noise created by flight is massively dependent on how flight is achieved.

Am I a bird man who can fly and the most noise I make is a few wing slaps as I take off or gain altitude, or am I cyborg with jet engines.

I agree low / no signature doesn't really work (it's also pretty explicitly tied to innate attacks).

I'd go with nuisance effect limitation prised according to how much of impact it has, and looking at the power modifier as well as guide.

There is a well-established method for dealing with loud flight propulsion: Temporary Disadvantage (Noisy).

[spacemonkey]

Flying has an obvious visible effect. Even if advantages are required to have an obvious sensory effect, I don't think they're required to cover all 5 senses.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

The problem is how nosy flight in abstract is can't really default to a set noise level, as the noise created by flight is massively dependent on how flight is achieved.

Indeed. Somewhere between 50 and 60 decibels is probably about right for running (a quiet conversation is difficult while running, but a normal one isn't), and should probably be about right for default Flight. We'll go with 50 dB. Quieter Flight would use some degree of Low or No Signature (possibly at a reduced price for only applying to the noise made - unless you have a really low ceiling, concealing the fact that you're freaking flying isn't really an option). Noisier Flight would either use Temporary Disadvantage: Noisy, or just the generic "Stealth is impossible" -5% Nuisance Effect.

Superman probably has the default or perhaps a Low Signature version. A bird man might have Noisy 1 or 2 (60 or 70 dB; the data point I found for birds with a quick search was 30 dB, but they're a lot smaller than us, and that chart seemed to be consistently low by around 10 dB), while a cyborg using a (small) jet engine might have Noisy 10 or more (150+ dB; note a full size jet engine is 170 dB). It might seem excessive to give a -20% discount for giving foes a +10 to Hearing, when "Stealth is impossible" is only -5%, but note with the way sound levels work in GURPS that +10 means a foe can hear you from 500 yards away on an unmodified Hearing roll.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by spacemonkey

Flying has an obvious visible effect. Even if advantages are required to have an obvious sensory effect, I don't think they're required to cover all 5 senses.

I've thought about saying that, but I've actually held off every time, because it's only sort of true.

The result of flying is in many cases unconcealably obvious. (Not in all cases. If you can hover, you could appear to be standing on an out-of-view surface that isn't actually there.) But that's not really a signature. The result of a No Signature Innate Attack is often going to be unconcealable as well...you may have burned a hole in a wall with no noise or flash, but there's still a hole in the wall.

While the Visible limitation as written doesn't apply to Flight, it's easy to imagine a Flight ability that produces some kind of visual signature when active. Glowing auras and such. Which would be disadvantageous compared to the standard flight that doesn't have anything like that.