Age of the Ethereal Realm

[MetaRob]

Okay, what's going on with my memory? Another example of things I'm certain I read in the books, but now do not exist anywhere: First was that some ethereals are very old, having been formed from the dreams of stars. And another passage saying that there is plenty of room for adventures in the Ethereal Realm before hell even comes on the scene. I've been looking in the core rules, Ethereal Player's Guide, The Marches, Gamemaster's Guide... Where do I remember reading those?

[William]

The Ethereal realm certainly existed long before Hell was populated. Blandine and Beleth had a Tower together before the Fall. The Tether that Lilith opened to Hell was through what became Beleth's Tower.

Depending on your interpretation, Hell existed but was empty from the beginning of Creation to the Fall, or it came in to existence at that time.

This now makes me wonder what happened to humans who met Fate before the Fall. Perhaps they couldn't, and simply reincarnated? Or disbanded? ("Your choice is not Heaven or Hell. It is Heaven or oblivion." "Gee, thanks, O Perfectly Just One, that's eminently fair.") I'm pretty sure Hell was empty when the first Fallen arrived.

Then one wonders what happens to human souls who met Fate after the Fall but before Hell was unsealed. Maybe Hellmouth was one-way? I'd bet that.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by MetaRob

Okay, what's going on with my memory?

Hopping timelines? I do that occasionally, too. It's very disconcerting.

Maybe something from http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=3268 ?

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by William

This now makes me wonder what happened to humans who met Fate before the Fall. Perhaps they couldn't, and simply reincarnated? Or disbanded? ("Your choice is not Heaven or Hell. It is Heaven or oblivion." "Gee, thanks, O Perfectly Just One, that's eminently fair.") I'm pretty sure Hell was empty when the first Fallen arrived.

Curiously--if you'll indulge me being slightly off-topic--that is a trend in current theology. If you're good, your reward is immortality that happens to be heavenly. If you're bad you burn for awhile, and then you just cease to exist. It's much more Merciful God than a few decades of evil buying you an eternity of suffering.

It's called "conditionalism". http://rethinkinghell.com/

[MetaRob]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Hopping timelines? I do that occasionally, too. It's very disconcerting.

I really think so. I loaned a couple of my In Nomine books to a friend of mine; I'm sure one of them was the Ethereal Player's Guide. He and I were talking about a campaign I was thinking about and I was discussing how early ethereals could come on the scene to complicate things for angels. I said, "some ethereals are very old, being formed by..." and we both said simultaneously "the dreams of stars". So he read the same thing, but it has vanished from existence.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Curiously--if you'll indulge me being slightly off-topic--that is a trend in current theology. If you're good, your reward is immortality that happens to be heavenly. If you're bad you burn for awhile, and then you just cease to exist. It's much more Merciful God than a few decades of evil buying you an eternity of suffering.

It's called "conditionalism". http://rethinkinghell.com/

Mercy is ending the suffering you inflicted after some arbitrarily long but not infinite time frame?
That's an odd stance.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Mercy is ending the suffering you inflicted after some arbitrarily long but not infinite time frame?
That's an odd stance.

Not really. Mercy doesn't exclude punishment, it just makes sure punishment is lenient compared to the alternatives. Which is more lenient: eternal suffering, or a period of suffering followed by death?

[William]

So Saminga is the most lenient Demon Prince?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by William

So Saminga is the most lenient Demon Prince?

Kobal: "Sure he's merciful. Isn't he doing his damndest to make sure that every soul stays out of Hell? Kindest demon in the afterlife, that's him."

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Kobal: "Sure he's merciful. Isn't he doing his damndest to make sure that every soul stays out of Hell? Kindest demon in the afterlife, that's him."

Andrealphus: Why do you think I'm at war with him? He'll screw us all out of playthings!

But seriously, Mummies are in a much better position than Hellsworn that way over and above having more Forces and serving forever. This might be changed if there was a standing plot point of the Hellsworn deal not being a lie - that is, if as part of it the demons were forced to actually keep to letter and spirit of everything they had to promise to get the soul Downstairs on pain of it instantly dissolving the moment the deal is broken. I'm actually kind of offended at the idea that only the mortal end of the deal is enforced with Hellsworn - especially when two angels so hardcore that Demon Princes explicitly dare not remove them are right there at the gates to go "nope nope nope nope nope" if anyone gets to Hell without being evil enough to have ended up there, yet they don't routinely sweep up literally every Hellsworn given that by and large their Fate-triggering sin was "got conned".