[Thaumatology] Setting magic item prices to make economic sense

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would reverse the process -- entirely delete the rules for energy cost for enchantment, set a money cost for enchantment, and treat it like any other type of crafting (which is to say, unspecified how it works).

That's actually quite a reasonable approach. The PC enchanting rules then become something like if you don't want to pay full price, an enchanter can pay between (some fraction) and (some larger fraction) of the cost for raw materials or kits and make up the rest with his time at (some number) of dollars per day of work.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, it's not $0; while not super-useful, make it cheap enough and someone would buy it. If there's zero trade in a particular product (because at a cost equal to its production cost demand is zero) I'm not sure it has a defined cost.

Yes, you're probably right. Of course, if someone rich enough specifically wants that item, the price is going to be negotiated.

Originally Posted by Anthony

At the moment, I suspect the easiest option is to use meta-tech as your enchantment system.

People arguing about the prices of things in Meta-Tech is why this thread exists, honestly (EDIT: not the only reason, but what triggered it). (I haven't read it, but the complaints seem to be that the prices make sense in terms of game-mechanics, but not for in-character economics - so, the same sort of problem that the canon Enchantment system has.)


Here's a thought that I think has been mentioned elsewhere, possibly by me: instead of Slow-and-Sure enchantment granting one point per mage-day, it grants eight points per mage-day, or one point per mage-hour of enchanting work. This makes the opportunity cost of S&S Enchantment lower, since a 1,000 point item now takes a little over four months, instead of a little under three years. So, there is significantly less disincentive on becoming an enchanter, and the price of $33 per mage-day (which we should assume is an average rather than an absolute) allows more useful items relative to the cost.

So, does this make the economics of modified-standard enchantment make more sense?

[ehrbar]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, it's not $0; while not super-useful, make it cheap enough and someone would buy it.

First, thus the word about in "about $0".

Second, no, it's not actually certain that somebody would bother buying it if it was cheap enough. Even if you try to give something away for free, you still need to find someone who wants the bother of taking it.

(If we take the rules literally, using the enchanted staff/wand/jewelry to cast the spell comes with a risk of critical failure every time. A few tales about the little girl who used her magic wand to talk to hedgehogs day after day until a demon ate her and her whole village might well make it hard to even give away an item of no obvious utility.)

Originally Posted by Anthony

In any case, that's a different class of problem.

Let me quote the OP, which is presumably defining the "class of problem" for this thread:

One of the more common arguments about magic items is that some of the prices are too high to account for supply, demand, or perhaps both.

and

Maybe the item existing at all save as a unique creation of a mad elf makes no sense because 'who would want to pay for that?!' (id est it's just not worth it in comparison to other things that the prospective buyer would wish to spend money on)

So, you know, when I discuss supply (including costs) and demand (like why anyone would want a hedgehog-communication item) within "the standard magic system, with standard enchantment" (that being another quote from the OP), I'm pretty sure I'm in the general area of the actual "class of problem" as defined by the OP.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

People arguing about the prices of things in Meta-Tech is why this thread exists, honestly. (I haven't read it, but the complaints seem to be that the prices make sense in terms of game-mechanics, but not for in-character economics - so, the same sort of problem that the canon Enchantment system has.)

Briefly, the issue that was brought up is that, while most GURPS gear has a value that doesn't vary with Campaign Starting Wealth - which is typically tied to TL - Meta Tech Devices explicitly do scale with CSW. So while an M1911 has the same price at TL 7 and TL 8, an MTD variant of one would cost around a third again as much in a TL 8 campaign compared to a TL 7 one (CSW at TL 7 is $15,000, CSW at TL 8 is $20,000).

Of course, I say "most" because there are a lot of exceptions, they're just kinda hidden, and often have low resolution. Blades at TL5+ get a sizable drop in price (in the form of the default being Fine, and merely Good getting a discount). A lot of items improve with TL without their price changing - packs get lighter, UT armor becomes more protective, CoL gets you a lot more bang for your buck, etc. And, relevant to this thread, absent industrialized processes that speed up enchanting, enchanting should also increase in price as TL goes up - because it still takes 200 mage-days to make a 200 energy item, but your mages are making higher wages, so those 200 mage-days are more expensive. It doesn't scale the same way as in Meta-Tech (MT uses Campaign Starting Wealth, labor uses Wages, and those don't scale linearly with each other - although at high TL's, where CoL is a smaller fraction of wages*, it's closer to linear).

*Wages are equal to 10% of Starting Wealth for your Wealth Level, plus CoL for a Status corresponding to your Wealth Level.

[apoc527]

Curiously, this topic has been on my mind a lot too, specifically with Yrth. We know that only 2% of the human population has the capacity to work magic and that an ever smaller percentage can reach Magery 3.

I think there are several major problems with the "cost per energy" model and they've been hinted at but not necessarily made explicit thus far in the thread: the first is that the calculations are somewhat circular (I say somewhat because you do have to start somewhere). S&S costs $33 per point because why? Because we say that enchanters make an Average wage. Okay, I can live with that (and easily change it), but the bigger issue is that under this system, all energy points are equally valued.

I think the discussion about the hedgehog communication item proves that this is folly. NOT all energy points are equivalent in value. Some magic items are incredibly useful to a broad swath of the population, others are...not. Supply and demand are simply not accounted for in the base magic item pricing system. I think it's fair to say that the minimum price for any given magic item can be set on a per-energy point basis, but that only sets the floor. The actual market price ought to be more variable.

I'm really thinking about just entirely revamping the cost structure, but starting from a different set of assumptions as follows:

1. Enchanter salaries are Comfortable for a journeyman and at least Wealthy for a Master Enchanter
2. The S&S system is modified by allowing each mage to contribute up to their Magery in points of energy per day OR I'd allow other ways to speed things up. The S&S system as written is just too slow.
3. As suggested, not all items are of equal value, so I'd come up with semi-systematic methods of determining market value

For example, Magic gives the example that if one uses Comfortable and Wealthy instead of Average and Comfortable, the price of Q&D jumps to $2/point and S&S goes to $70/point. To me, this makes more sense as a starting point because nothing as rare as magical talent is going to be good for merely Average wages. Honestly, it should probably be closer to Wealthy and Very Wealthy, but that might begin to skew things too much the other direction.

In any event, I still think the "per point" pricing causes major issues.

[Anthony]

I would note that there's nothing wrong with certain enchantments being so expensive that no-one actually makes them, plenty of things in the real world are theoretically possible but not done because they're too expensive for the benefit so I'm not sure why magic items should be any different.

[apoc527]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would note that there's nothing wrong with certain enchantments being so expensive that no-one actually makes them, plenty of things in the real world are theoretically possible but not done because they're too expensive for the benefit so I'm not sure why magic items should be any different.

I completely agree. Not every magic item will have a market!

Separately, I just realized that another place to poke at underlying assumptions is the idea that Master Enchanters don't bother with S&S enchantment. Under basic Magic rules, that checks out because every enchanter can only add 1 point of energy per day. That's not particularly satisfying, however, and it also makes it so every magic item is equally easy (or hard) to create, which ALSO feels wrong.

Might need to come up with an entirely new set of enchanting rules! Whee!

[Pursuivant]

The demographics of your default medieval fantasy world, where only a tiny fraction of the population is capable of learning the Enchant spell makes magic items inherently rare and expensive.

Consider that anyone with the ability to learn the Enchant spell (i.e., IQ 14+, Magery 3+ , boatloads of spells, many VH) can probably make far more money doing almost anything else. They can name their price for their services in any major kingdom and can usually be far more effective casting spells.

At the same time, the average income is so low that there's no market for items which cost what a super-genius mage would have to charge to make the enchantment worth their time.

If you want cheap enchantment, you need a lot more enchanters and a steady market for very low cost magic items which are immediately useful to the 90% of the population who are working class farmers and laborers. Historically, that's why you had local wise women/hedge wizards or traveling hucksters selling cheap item with alleged magical powers, like love potions or Indulgences (i.e., sin now, pay a fee to reduce your time in Purgatory after you die).

As others have said, for game balance reasons enchantment is designed to limit the number of magic items on the market and to increase the costs of the really good enchantments to Defense Contractor/Luxury Goods prices. That means the only logical reason for the magical equivalent of Leonardo Da Vinci to enchant stuff is, a) Because they want to do it as an experiment, b) Because their government wants them to and is willing to pay the price, c) Because some super rich or super high-status patron is willing to fork out the cash for an enchanted novelty item.

Quick and Dirty enchantment brings the cost for lesser magic items down to "upper middle class"/"military issue" prices, but the demographics don't support the market because the middle and upper classes are tiny in a TL3 setting and travel difficulties limit how far customers can go to get to markets. A huge city might support a few specialist Quick and Dirty enchanters, who have a steady trade in selling expendable enchantments to a central government and a large local middle class.

The only magical setting I've seen where cheap enchantments are plausible, given the demographics, is the Harry Potter setting.*

* There's a large population of mages who can easily travel to a few centralized markets, creating both a marketplace and customers.

* Almost any mage, even one of modest abilities, can create enchantments.

* All but the most powerful enchantments "wear out" after a certain amount of time, creating a steady demand for new goods.

* Almost everyone has at least an Average income, allowing both capital to start a small business and customers who can afford magical goods.

* There's enough hand-waving of the economic underpinnings that the fundamental economics work. I.e., sufficiently large markets, ease of entry into the marketplace, sufficient demand to keep specialist enchanters employed.

As a result, there's a large demand for cheap, temporarily enchanted items like magical candies or newspapers. The concentration of mages in a few markets allows specialist magical shops to exist. Ease of enchantment and low cost of materials allows mages of modest magical power to make a living as specialist enchanters.

The most talented mages aren't enchanters. Instead, they're in "adventuring professions," such as law enforcement/military or highly valued professions like banking and healing.

*

Spoiler:  

I'm not going to touch J.K. Rowling's current political/social views, and accompanying psychological meltdown and brand suicide, with an enchanted 10-Foot Pole of Don't Go There. So let's not, please.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

The only magical setting I've seen where cheap enchantments are plausible, given the demographics, is the Harry Potter setting.*

I've seen plenty of settings where cheap magical items are plausible, they're just not rare magic settings, and they either aren't low tech (I mean, they might be TL 3+4 or something, but not TL 3) or the magic items have very limited functions.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I've seen plenty of settings where cheap magical items are plausible, they're just not rare magic settings, and they either aren't low tech (I mean, they might be TL 3+4 or something, but not TL 3) or the magic items have very limited functions.

Now that I think of it I have read other fantasy series in the distant past where cheap, common magic items are plausible. Like you said, however, they're not straight medieval fantasy with rare magic.

The way to have cheap magic items in a setting where mages are rare is to have spontaneous enchantment. Assume that mana is an ambient force that normally interacts weakly with ordinary items and people. As the inhabitants of a magical world go about their lives, sometimes purely random events or seemingly random actions result in a temporary or permanent enchanted item, blessing or curse. Taken to extremes, spontaneously enchanted items can act like loot boxes in video games.

Good random results create one-use enchantments or elixirs. Bad random events result in ordinary animals mutating into monsters, people getting possessed by evil spirits or items being affected by minor curses.

Other laws of magic might also trigger spontaneous enchantments, like a master crafter's tools gradually being imbued with some of their skill or a sword gaining limited power to find or kill certain types of enemies. At the lowest level, these items are nothing but the Weapon Bond or Equipment Bond perks, but other minor magical effects are possible.

Mages can easily detect such items, and can also determine their relative power and potential uses. Inventing new spells requires trying out random combinations of words, gestures and psychological intents to predictably evoke what would have otherwise been a one-off random event.