[Path Magic] What happens if you Banish a Spirit of Place?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

But....!
... what if the spirit is a robot?

It seems to me that those exist in different universes of discourse.

[Black Leviathan]

That's sort of a messy metaphysics problem. Technically you can't banish the spirit of a location from that locations as that would be it's origin. You could destroy the spirit, it would likely have an impact of making the place less remarkable but the spirit could return if the things that empowered it into being were to return like the reverence of people visiting the location or fear of the location like a spooky forest, or just unchecked mana instilling the location with animus.

[Plane]

destroying spirits is literally all the Path ritual of Banish does (damages them) despite the name, are we maybe thinking of a skill like Exorcism (B193) or ritual like Excorcise (T161) ?

we should probably go into the whole 'must depart' thing, like is it mind control where they're forced to take a Move maneuver and Sprint as fast as possible away?

Do they need to use Extra Effort to go as fast as possible?

Did not realize until now the permanence resulting from crits, that's pretty amazing. There should probably be some way around that using other abilities though...

Like perhaps we could say the effect is to instill a Compulsion disadvantage (stay away from exorcised spot) so to negate it you'd need some Affliction which negated the Mental Disadvantage?

We also need issues here like:

1) what happens if someone forces the spirit into the location against their will? Do they know they're back in the banned spot?

2) what happens if you want to exorcise a spirit from something moving like a sailing ship or a minivan? Are exorcisms anchored to objects?

[lugaid]

Originally Posted by Plane

destroying spirits is literally all the Path ritual of Banish does (damages them) despite the name

That's how it works mechanically, but the first sentence of the Ritual description notes that there are some types of spirits on which it does not work, and that's a matter for discussion.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by lugaid

That's how it works mechanically, but the first sentence of the Ritual description notes that there are some types of spirits on which it does not work, and that's a matter for discussion.

oh you mean "not the resident souls of material living creatures" ?

I figure that has to do with whether or not you're Substantial v. Insubstantial, not sure what else 'material' refers to

Something like 'living' is also kind of debatable too. What makes something 'living' and immune to this? Is it not an 'afterlife' ?

[Anders]

The intent is presumably to make it so you can't kill normal humans with it. So I'd start there with my definitions. According to that description you could 'kill' e.g. a lich or a vampire with it, though.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anders

The intent is presumably to make it so you can't kill normal humans with it. So I'd start there with my definitions. According to that description you could 'kill' e.g. a lich or a vampire with it, though.

Horror by way of some features seems to imply that you define being able to be affected by these spells as a 0pt feature (even though it seems like all downsides so maybe it should be a quirk?) and that it has to be listed on the character sheet, as otherwise we may not be able to infer it by the presence of advantages.

Though personally I think if you have Insubstantiality of the "Spirit" sort (Powers 54 defines five other kinds of Insubstantiality) that is probably the best guideline if we don't want to be listing a bunch of features.

Ghosts (H78) Shadows (H80) and Evil Faerie are all vulnerable to Astral Block, Repel Spirits, and Turn Spirit.

Succubi (H66) share these also, plus also Banish.

Demons (H96) as well, except for them it's both Banish and Pentagram they're vulnerable too.

I think I remember even broader examples like "can be influenced by spirit-affecting magic" (ie all spells) but forget where I saw it. That at least I can understand being 0pt because there are some spells which benefit spirits like Embody.

In terms of only being affected by attack spells (AB/RS/TS and sometimes B or P) but not explicitly the buffing ones though it seems purely disadvantageous, the question is if it's disadvantageous enough to warrant a point, or just one of those situations where a -0.1pt disadvantage counts as a 0pt discount.

[lugaid]

Originally Posted by Plane

oh you mean "not the resident souls of material living creatures" ?

I figure that has to do with whether or not you're Substantial v. Insubstantial, not sure what else 'material' refers to

Something like 'living' is also kind of debatable too. What makes something 'living' and immune to this? Is it not an 'afterlife' ?

In an animist world, in which the world and its components are all (or mostly all) "alive", is the spirit of place of a boulder a "resident soul of a material living creature"? A river? A forest? These are matters for discussion, and more directly for setting metaphysics.

For that matter, would the Banish Ritual work on an astrally-projecting soul? It is not, arguably, "resident" while doing so. These are just the sorts of things a worldbuilder should work out in advance for a setting where such abilities exist.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by lugaid

In an animist world, in which the world and its components are all (or mostly all) "alive", is the spirit of place of a boulder a "resident soul of a material living creature"? A river? A forest? These are matters for discussion, and more directly for setting metaphysics.

For that matter, would the Banish Ritual work on an astrally-projecting soul? It is not, arguably, "resident" while doing so. These are just the sorts of things a worldbuilder should work out in advance for a setting where such abilities exist.

I suppose from an animist point of view, the main way of "banish"ing a spirit is to get another one to chase it off - ghosts, roaming spirits and the like get moved on, anything already in its place: resident spirits, souls etc. get moved on and become angry ghosts whilst the victor takes their place, creating a possessed human or a new genius, depending. Of course, if a shaman or sorceror can destroy a genius in their own right, they've bound that location as a place of power ... presumably if they "possess" a human they enslave that soul instead and can exchange bodies with it or create a zombie.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Plane

Horror by way of some features seems to imply that you define being able to be affected by these spells as a 0pt feature (even though it seems like all downsides so maybe it should be a quirk?) and that it has to be listed on the character sheet, as otherwise we may not be able to infer it by the presence of advantages.

Maybe think of it as an Unusual Background that allows you to buy spirit abilities, but with a cost of zero because it also makes you vulnerable to counter-spirit magics??