[RAW] Multiple First-Aid's Treating Shock

[MrFix]

After playing GURPS for years thinking that you could only Treat Shock (and thus restore a 1d of HP) once per... unspecified time, I actually went ahead to read the entry for Treating Shock in detail. There's no outright stated limit to number of times, or delay between attempts, or separation by wound.

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

Do any GURPS books expand on this or provide explicit limits on Treat Shock?
Do you understand Treat Shock as a one-time thing? If so, at what point can Treat Shock be used again on the same character?


P.S.: Let's not hang up on the name of the maneuver, as GURPS is often not very good with these things, and description of the maneuver also outlines "applying a more elaborate dressing", which reasonably can happen multiple times if the victim has multiple wounds. Of course, with GURPS having no rules for actual real life shock, only 'momentary stun of pain', the naming is doubly obtuse.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by MrFix

After playing GURPS for years thinking that you could only Treat Shock (and thus restore a 1d of HP) once per... unspecified time, I actually went ahead to read the entry for Treating Shock in detail. There's no outright stated limit to number of times, or delay between attempts, or separation by wound.

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

Do any GURPS books expand on this or provide explicit limits on Treat Shock?
Do you understand Treat Shock as a one-time thing? If so, at what point can Treat Shock be used again on the same character?

P.S.: Let's not hang up on the name of the maneuver, as GURPS is often not very good with these things, and description of the maneuver also outlines "applying a more elaborate dressing", which reasonably can happen multiple times if the victim has multiple wounds. Of course, with GURPS having no rules for actual real life shock, only 'momentary stun of pain', the naming is doubly obtuse.

B424 states "After the time indicated on the First Aid Table, he may roll against First Aid skill." The longest time is at TL0-1 (30 minutes) for 1d-4 to 10 minutes for TL9+ for 1d+1.

Based on the "A critical success restores the maximum possible HP!" comment I assume this treatment for shock can only be done once and only after you have successfully stopped bleeding (B420)

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by maximara

B424 states "After the time indicated on the First Aid Table, he may roll against First Aid skill." The longest time is at TL0-1 (30 minutes) for 1d-4 to 10 minutes for TL9+ for 1d+1.

Based on the "A critical success restores the maximum possible HP!" comment I assume this treatment for shock can only be done once and only after you have successfully stopped bleeding (B420)

That means critical success maxes out the 1d of healing, instead of rolling to find out how much. Ie at tl8 crit success heals 6 HP (1d maxed). Its not an indicator of a limit of attempts

Also, the time you describe is not a delay between attempts, its how long 1 attempt takes. It doesn't state how long you have to wait between attempts, or limit of attempts.

[AlexanderHowl]

First Aid is literally the first aid that someone receives after bandaging. You only get one try to treat shock, and it must occur immediately after bandaging. Any player who attempted to argue otherwise in my games would have a short career as an adventurer because I do not tolerate munchkins.

[Tomsdad]

I'd allow multiple attempts but only one successful result i.e. you can try as often as you like and fail, but once you've succeeded you have treated the "shock" (so you can't fish for better results with repeat attempts).

Shock is a pretty nebulous concept though.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

First Aid is literally the first aid that someone receives after bandaging. You only get one try to treat shock, and it must occur immediately after bandaging. Any player who attempted to argue otherwise in my games would have a short career as an adventurer because I do not tolerate munchkins.

The "first" in first aid refers more to you being the first responder or first person to provide medical treatment. Not literally your first attempt to provide medical treatment. First aiders often provide a series of medical treatments and ongoing care. Generally working down the priority list of needs, and in more modern contexts with a view to getting the subject to more complete medical services if warranted.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

First Aid is literally the first aid that someone receives after bandaging. You only get one try to treat shock, and it must occur immediately after bandaging. Any player who attempted to argue otherwise in my games would have a short career as an adventurer because I do not tolerate munchkins.

Interesting. At what point does first aid refresh in your games? It has to at some point, or is it once per mortal life?

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by MrFix

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

I don't see how you read that.

Basic p424 (and Biotech p 123-124) is quite clear :

For each injuries/encounter**, you can have one first aid attempt consisting of up to 2 First aid roll (not counting resuscitation, ...)

One first Aid roll ("bandaging ") to stop bleeding (if there is bleeding) - one minute unless modified by gear. Stop bleeding and restore 1 HP.
One first Aid roll ("treat shock") for extended dressing/treating shock/.. - time needed and HP restored varies by TL.

** : If you suffer several wounds during the same encounter, 4e assume you pool them and treat them as a single loss. A common approach is to track each injury separately for bleeding. The "treat shock" roll is once per encounter. So is the 1hp recovered by bandaging even if you roll to stop bleeding for each separate injuries.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I don't see how you read that.

Basic p424 (and Biotech p 123-124) is quite clear :

For each injuries, you can have one first aid attempt consisting of up to 2 First aid roll (not counting resuscitation, ...)

One first Aid roll ("bandaging ") to stop bleeding (if there is bleeding) - one minute unless modified by gear. Stop bleeding and restore 1 HP.
One first Aid roll ("treat shock") for extended dressing/treating shock/.. - time needed and HP restored varies by TL.

The issue is that there's no word 'each' or 'one attempt' or any variation.

The way you read it has an issue - the only way basic set tracks injuries is via HP loss and crippling system. There's no other way. If it was the way you read it, it'd imply that a person with 3 1 hp worth of dog bites would be entitled to 3 first aid attempts at 3d hp healed total because he has "three separate injuries". At TL8. Which in effect is multiple shock treatments with a requirement of it being 3 separate injuries instead of one.

PS: Nowhere in basic set it outlines what you wrote about stacking, treat shock being once per encounter, etc. RAW there's also no limit on HP healed from bandaging a wound. 1 HP worth of damage still entitles you to full 1d at tl8.

Feel free to provide page numbers and quotes to back your claims up.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by MrFix

That means critical success maxes out the 1d of healing, instead of rolling to find out how much. Ie at tl8 crit success heals 6 HP (1d maxed). Its not an indicator of a limit of attempts

Also, the time you describe is not a delay between attempts, its how long 1 attempt takes. It doesn't state how long you have to wait between attempts, or limit of attempts.

Ah I was reading it as "A critical success restores the (characters) maximum possible HP!"