12-23-2018, 11:18 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
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Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
"Rocket Tag" was a common term in some older editions of D&D to denote that higher level combats often devolved into a battle over who could landing the first meaningful attack; either a monster/PC would do effectively nothing with an attack to their adversary or an attack would outright kill (or disable) them. At a certain point, high level defenses and attacks became very binary varying between worthless and fight-ending.
Do you ever find that this (or something similar) becomes a problem in Dungeon Fantasy? As a related question (and one which also comes from experience with other systems): Do you have advice for the GM who wants to keep DF characters grounded/tethered to the world around them? What I mean is that I've been in campaigns in other games during which the players get to a point where they're aware that they can easily crush NPCs (such as the king's guards and etc). While the GM can "level up" the world around the players, doing so can be somewhat tiring and can lead to questions which break immersion. |
12-23-2018, 11:27 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
It's certainly possible for DF to devolve into that, depending on choice of characters and adversaries. It's less certain to occur than in high tech GURPS.
If you want more grounded characters, don't run them at 250 points. |
12-23-2018, 11:39 PM | #3 |
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Cidri (exact location withheld)
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
Interesting, I've never come across the term "rocket tag" in 35+ years of gaming...learn something new every day...
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12-23-2018, 11:51 PM | #4 | |
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
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I'm not opposed to doing over-the-top stuff; heroes should (in my mind) be above average. Though I do desire for "above average" to still be within a certain general ballpark of the world around the characters. I haven't had long-term experience with DFRPG yet; I've been attempting to eyeball and mentally gauge if some of the challenges I've had while running other systems can be avoided with DF. |
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12-24-2018, 12:36 AM | #5 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
It's highly unlikely at 250 points.
It can occur, but PC side it's usually Wizards tossing out 18d Fireballs or some such as an Alpha Strike when they can't take it in return (and which pretty much completely taps them out). Or 'save or die' spells. Very few other PCs are going to be 'dropping bombs' so to speak. As for monsters, just pay attention to what you're using. Yeah, some can outright wreck a PCs day, but a canny GM will spot it coming and either avoid it or cackle madly as the pack of Doomchildren in melee all go off at once... |
12-24-2018, 02:59 AM | #6 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
It's not that unlikely. Consider Redbone the Swift. He has DR 4 and 15 HP, so he'll be reduced to 0 HP by the average result of a 4d cutting attack or a 5d+2 crushing attack. He does 3d6+6, so among the foes that oneshot him on a successful attack are himself. Looking through monsters, the following basically only need one successful attack:
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12-24-2018, 03:28 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
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In contrast, from the perspective of a player or their character, it's not always obvious in a more vertically-designed (i.e. linear levels, increasing +x magic items, and etc) what exactly a threat means. The level 1 kobold looks basically the same as the level 30 kobold; the numbers are just bigger. Similarly, the story might say the king's bodyguard is the most fierce fighter in the land, but one high-level PC easily wrecks the bodyguard and everyone else in the castle. The main thing I'd like to avoid is getting into an arms race of +x and stacking numbers upon numbers. To some extent, given the nature of the genre, it's somewhat inevitable. But I would like to also encourage some breadth of play. Going to the dungeon and on adventures would still be the primary activity of a setting I have in mind, but it also heavily revolves around a city, so there may be opportunities for players to engage in non-combat activities on the side. My goal is to allow both the player who wants to play a combat powerhouse and the player who likes to invest in things such as allies and contacts to both be equally as useful. Doing so has been a challenge in some other systems because the expectation (in those systems) is that a character of a particular level has certain numerical bonuses; spending character resources on anything else takes away from the ability to meet those expectations. By default, GURPS doesn't have those expectations by inherent design; I'm not yet experienced enough with Dungeon Fantasy to understand how heavily (if at all) the design behind adventures and creatures assumes similar expectations. Last edited by Johnny Angel; 12-24-2018 at 03:52 AM. Reason: touched up some spelling |
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12-24-2018, 08:19 AM | #8 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Midwest, USA
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
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Around here, for the past 15 to 20-some years I've been around the GURPS community, we call that "swingy." GURPS combat is very "swingy." Between "perfect health" and "dead," GURPS basically has two levels of injury: "seriously injured" and "about dead." Seriously injured is things like having a crippled arm or leg or being below 1/3 HP. About dead is having to roll every turn to remain conscious. With damage usually being two to four six-sided dice, DR being around 4-8, and HP being around 12-16, that's just how it's going to be. Against PC's, it's an issue for GM's. It really is. There's lots of ways around it for enemies, but it takes more effort for PC's. Armor divisors are great, but it's hard to justify them for many battles, let alone most. I use them whenever I can; I just can't bring myself to give common giant rats AD teeth, for example. Cyclical venom (e.g., Acid Spider) is great for this issue as well, but if it's by bite, it has to be delivered, which means we're back to AD or high damage. The best way to deal with it is to embrace it. It's how GURPS combat works. Real life combat is just as rarely the D&D "death by 1,000 cuts." Our "hit points," in the D&D sense, is often represented by blocks, dodges and parries. When everyone's on board with that, it's fine. Quote:
I've also found that meta gaming it is best. Otherwise, you'll just not get anything done. There will always be at least one player who simply must intimidate, threaten and outright attack regardless of the situation. Otherwise, see the Caverntown supplement for GURPS DF.
__________________
. "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman |
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12-24-2018, 10:56 AM | #9 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
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So, that's hardly a "one-shot". But yeah, you can classify him as 250 points of Rocket Tag. And I did mention "watch the monsters", but that's because they aren't "level coded" for ease of use. But this is GURPS. All types of combat tend to be "swingy/rocket tag", not just DF. Quote:
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It depends on what you want out of the gate? Do you want strong PCs capable of taking on a Liche and winning? Or should they be concerning themselves with kobold fodder and Orcs being about their match? If it's the former, you want Big Damn Heroes, then go with DF but broaden out their background skills with some more Social skills, or just tell them to use their 5 quirk points on skills that aren't on their sheets (I just gave everyone 25 more points at start and let them take skills off Template if they wanted to, but I wanted Big Damn Heroes). If you want to start low, then pick up DF 15 and use the Henchmen. Your Players might squawk at the "low level' Templates, and their general lack of regular competence (skills in the 12-14 range rather than 14-18 range), but with a steady diet of exp they'll get there fast. It also gives them more room to breathe as they grow, not having a niche they have to excel at means they can broaden out more rather than continuing to jack up that one thing their awesome at. Also, don't keep throwing foes that "only the strongest guy" can hurt, let your strong guy have plenty of crush fodder moments and he'll be less likely to keep power-jacking his damage and toughness. Last edited by evileeyore; 12-24-2018 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Forgot I wanted to directly address Johnny. |
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12-24-2018, 11:16 AM | #10 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?
Due to the high HT scores monsters tend to have even a strapping half ogre weapon master is unlikely to put something down in a single blow unless vitals or skull for the penalty to major wound check
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