Does DF ever suffer from "rocket tag"?

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by malloyd

In a lot of ways this is the inverse of the "rocket tag" issue. It's probably not possible to avoid both of them.

It is a less serious problem in GURPS (and other games that aim at realistic combat - a "weapon" that doesn't disable somebody you hit with it enough they can't hit back a good fraction of the time is not a realistically successful weapon design) precisely because those "rocket tag" results are on the table. You can't dismiss even individual goblins as threats even to SuperGuard if any one hit can be dangerous. Even if the odds are fairly low, there's always a chance the lowly goblin will land the first hit, cripple something, and win the fight.

The "problem" I had with some of my D&D experience was that it was a weird combination of both issues.

Yeah, I completely agree that weapons are designed to kill, so lethality makes sense.

On the other hand, high-level fights (in 3rd Edition more specifically, but it still happened to some extent in other editions) would often turn into a race to win initiative and fire off an attack and had little (if anything) to do with player choice or tactics.

On the other side of the coin, I've been in campaigns where PCs become virtually immune to the world around them. This manifested into some weird things at the table -differing depending upon the nature of the edition being played. (I'm willing to elaborate on that more, but I feel as though doing so here would turn into so much of a discussion about other games that it would move away from Dungeon Fantasy as a topic.)

Originally Posted by Anthony

It isn't really. It's more of a problem with scaling and how damage resolution works. Sure, if PCs are meant to be able to take on a hundred goblins at once, NPCs meant to go one on one vs PCs also have to be able to do that, but it doesn't take rocket tag to make it so a hundred goblins are a threat to PCs, it just requires an average goblin to do 1% of PC health before being taken down.

What rocket tag does is increase the chance that the weaker side in a fight will win. Assuming a corridor fight (one PC and one monster attacking per turn), consider these models:

1. Goblins hit for 1 damage. PCs have 100 HP and kill 1 goblin per turn. Average goblin damage per turn = 1%, so expected goblins per PC = 100. Standard deviation = 0%. As there is zero deviation, a PC will never be defeated by less than 100 goblins, and will never defeat more than 100.
2. Goblins hit for 1 damage. PCs have 10 HP, 90% dodge chance, and kill 1 goblin per turn. Average goblin damage per turn = 1%, so expected goblins per PC = 100. Standard deviation = 3%. 50 goblin attacks = 50 average with standard deviation 21.2, so there's about a 2% chance to defeat a PC with 50 goblins and it is theoretically possible (1/10,000,000,000) for 10 goblins to defeat a PC. On the other hand, there's also about a 2% chance that a PC defeats 200 goblins.
3. Goblins hit for 1 damage. PCs have 1 HP, 99% dodge chance, and kill 1 goblin per turn. Average goblin damage per turn = 1%, so expected goblins per PC = 100. Standard deviation = 9.95%, but we aren't expecting a normal distribution. A PC can be defeated by a single goblin (1% chance) and has a 69% chance to go down vs 100 goblins, but a 0.65% chance to beat 1,000 goblins.

Note that if all the goblins can attack at once, it only takes 14 goblins to beat a PC, as they will get in a total of 105 attacks before being wiped out.

Neither of the first two cases is rocket tag, the third clearly is, but the typical power of PCs vs goblins is actually unchanged. The thing is, the way DR and defenses work in GURPS means average lethality of foes can be much lower than that 1%.

I'm okay with PCs being obviously above the average person in a game world. I'm even okay with PCs being able to reliably slay a handful of low-level threats. But, for my own personal tastes, there's a limit to what I want to buy into as a baseline assumption.

I find it more interesting when high-level heroes are leading armies rather than fighting them.

4-6 Dungeon Fantasy characters fighting a horde of goblins in a hallway and having a viable chance of success... I'm good with that.

4-6 characters versus a nation's army in a pitched battle and regularly winning... I don't think that's what I want.


I have not been a player in a Dungeon Fantasy game (or run one) long enough to see if similar things occur.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

4-6 Dungeon Fantasy characters fighting a horde of goblins in a hallway and having a viable chance of success... I'm good with that.

How big is a "horde"? Because 125 pointers would struggle at my definition of horde and even 250 pointers* would sweat profusely at the thought (unless built for that task and facing stupid gobbos).

4-6 characters versus a nation's army in a pitched battle and regularly winning... I don't think that's what I want.

Even 500 point DF Characters* can't do that. At least not without serious preparation and luck.


Hmmm. Maybe 5 Vryces could do it if really prepped properly.



* I do however have a 250 point Character ('Barbarian' Ogress Wrestler) that can easily do the former and has a slim chance (if outfitted just right) at doing the later... but she's not built to a Template and really gives the system a good "bend till it almost breaks" workout.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

How big is a "horde"? Because 125 pointers would struggle at my definition of horde and even 250 pointers* would sweat profusely at the thought (unless built for that task and facing stupid gobbos).
.

A lot of it is feel, so it's hard to quantify, but I'll try.

Off the top of my head...

Somewhere in the general ballpark the Daredevil Hallway Fight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66feInucFY), Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris fighting members of a street gang, Conan hacking through a group of nameless mooks, or The Avengers fighting a group of the bad guy's lackeys seems about right for "normal." Idealized portrayals of the "300" Spartans also fit because they at least have some vague grounding in plausibility due to tactics, skill, leadership, terrain, and etc being on their side. I can also buy into the goblin fight from the newer Hobbit movies; even in that, the characters realized they needed to make a run for it before the numbers became too overwhelming.

In contrast, the PCs scything through things as though they're Sauron clubbing through squads of men and elves with a single blow (during the opening of Lord of The Rings) is beyond what I want for the baseline assumption of PC power level. (Though, even that pales in comparison -by far- to what some of the D&D campaigns I've participated in have been like. That's not to say they were badwrongfun, just different than what I want from what I desire from my next lengthy experience.)


Hmm...

Maybe my thoughts on Thor Ragnarok are helpful.

I thought the fight on the bridge was cool. Marvel Movie Thor is (I would guess) several levels above where Dungeon Fantasy characters are in terms of power. Even so, there is still at least some vague sense that the bridge is limiting the impact of the enemy's numbers, and that the heroes are still required to work for the victory.

In contrast, there is a scene earlier in the movie during which Hela* literally single-handedly defeats everyone. Yet, part of the plot revolves around her going through the effort of awakening an undead army. It's difficult to understand why she would have any use at all for the army being that she's capable of defeating an entire army by herself.

*Which, coincidentally, made the end of the bridge scene and the movie make sense. Thor comments to his friends that there's no viable way to fight Hela, so they just leave.

I'm not sure how useful that is in terms of giving some context. To expand on that, I will also add that I'm willing to accept some things in movies because I'm also conscious of a movie (as an artform) making choices which make sense in the context of making a movie in which events are scripted to go a specific way, but perhaps don't make as much sense for an interactive game built upon dice rolls and the idea that player choice and experience interacts with the game world and shared narrative.

I like dungeon crawling, but I still want to be able to have the occasional castle siege, high seas battle between ships, or something like that without the abilities of PCs regularly eclipsing the seriousness of such an encounter.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Somewhere in the general ballpark the Daredevil Hallway Fight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66feInucFY), Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris fighting members of a street gang, Conan hacking through a group of nameless mooks, or The Avengers fighting a group of the bad guy's lackeys seems about right for "normal."

Daredevil could easily be a 250 point DF Martial Artist fighting a group or goblins with say Brawling/Melee 12.

He mops up the floor with them, but took hits and walked away bloody (probably at some point between 0 and -1xHP).

Idealized portrayals of the "300" Spartans also fit because they at least have some vague grounding in plausibility due to tactics, skill, leadership, terrain, and etc being on their side.

The Spartans are a bit more Cinematic, probably in the 300 point range (or an optimized slightly off template 250) with some Cinematic switches turned on.

In contrast, the PCs scything through things as though they're Sauron clubbing through squads of men and elves with a single blow (during the opening of Lord of The Rings) is beyond what I want for the baseline assumption of PC power level.

Probably around 750+ point DF Knight/Holy Warrior.

In contrast, there is a scene earlier in the movie during which Hela* literally single-handedly defeats everyone.

Well, she is Hela strong after all.

Yet, part of the plot revolves around her going through the effort of awakening an undead army. It's difficult to understand why she would have any use at all for the army being that she's capable of defeating an entire army by herself.

Because she's the BBEG. They don't do it all themselves. She uses minions to go do things, in this case hunting the refugees and fighting Thor and his teammates.

I like dungeon crawling, but I still want to be able to have the occasional castle siege, high seas battle between ships, or something like that without the abilities of PCs regularly eclipsing the seriousness of such an encounter.

Beware the Wizards. If some one is playing a Wizard just make sure that they understand the social contract and are willing to be reigned in by you.


Though, if you're only using DFRPG Spells, then they've been mostly tamed. Mostly.

[Kalzazz]

Given that national armies number in the thousands I don't think 4-6 guys can take one in a pitched battle. There's enough guys crits will tell eventually

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

How big is a "horde"? Because 125 pointers would struggle at my definition of horde and even 250 pointers* would sweat profusely at the thought (unless built for that task and facing stupid gobbos).

For reference last week we did a larger battle with 15 Goblins, 5 Hobgoblins and an Ork. We had 4 heroes and 4 hirelings that largely absorbed burning oil and kept goblins from getting behind us. Our tactics didn't work. We all took wounds and one of us went into negatives, three of our hirelings died!, our priest exhausted his power item. There was a very good feeling of "We are managing this but it could kill us". If our plan to sneak into the ruins and open the barricade covertly worked, twice as many goblins would have been an easy fight. If they didn't have high walls and burning oil we could have probably handled another dozen Goblins in the fight. 21 Goblins would have taken away some of the more solid wounding hits we got from the Ork. 21 Orks would probably have been the death of one or more of us. It's all fairly circumstantial what makes a hoard viable.

[Anthony]

The usual for an army against PCs is that the army tends to be slow and unstealthy, so it's very hard to force an engagement under terms that favor the army.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Given that national armies number in the thousands I don't think 4-6 guys can take one in a pitched battle. There's enough guys crits will tell eventually

If they get to attack. My experience with the kinds of PCs who like to fight armies is that they never offer the army a target to roll to hit. They annihilate armies with some combination of shots from concealment, traps, indirect fire, disposable minions, and dirty tricks (like poison in the water supply). Think of it as the fantasy equivalent of using snipers 1,000 yards away, landmines, artillery, drones, and dirty tricks (which are pretty much universal) in lieu of ordinary line infantry.