Technological development without fire.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Otaku

...which brings us to the point that they are ignoring that fire is natural. >.>

True

I though about them only using fire in its "wild" state but I think that is a bit too weird. Maybe

Bears, wolves and other wild animals exist in their gardens so their lifestyle isn't entirely "frolicking and prancing" a few neighbours so some measure of security is needed to

Gardener mages, breeding trees ties in with Ents (tm)

The main elven faction in the world has a TL notation of
2+1 with the plus one representing high quality. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Quick example being humans design a horse collar, Elves breed a better horse.

The elves would have a good knowledge of breeding and genetics even though or because of the lack of genetics in their own race (in game feature. Memetics are equal to genetics for elven development)

[Otaku]

At the risk of being "That guy" I'll reference how I did it the one time I seriously tried designing my own fairly typical fantasy setting.

The campaign's average Tech Level was TL3 with "low mana" being the most common for various reasons. The Elves were behind the other major races in terms of technology but having their usual proficiency in magic (at the time I was still using the standard Magic System): they were TL 2 but as their lands were at worst low mana and usually normal mana (with some choice spots that were higher), their territory was secure. They led the Sylvan races, at least officially: I have never been good at making elves that felt noble, so I find it easier to make them sort of a step between the old 3e Fantasy Folk Elves and Dark Elves.

The relevance here is that their individual lifestyle would ape trappings of far higher TLs because instead of feeling the need to preserve nature, they would bend it to their purpose magically (as opposed to using technology like we humans). Relevant here is that magical biotech was a "thing" they were in the early stages of developing... and if you need a reason for your Wood Elves to be strong/want odd technical knowledge that requires a split TL, as stated here you can justify it.

Magically sensing life means they likely realized (sooner or later) that there were microscopic organisms. Between that and the usual magical breeding shenanigans you have them go a bit darker by magically achieving advanced (to the rest of the setting) biological warfare and modified larger specimens for living weapons... or go for a more lighthearted town with a Pokémon-by-another-name.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by (E)

True

I though about them only using fire in its "wild" state but I think that is a bit too weird. Maybe

Bears, wolves and other wild animals exist in their gardens so their lifestyle isn't entirely "frolicking and prancing" a few neighbours so some measure of security is needed to

Gardener mages, breeding trees ties in with Ents (tm)

The main elven faction in the world has a TL notation of
2+1 with the plus one representing high quality. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Quick example being humans design a horse collar, Elves breed a better horse.

The elves would have a good knowledge of breeding and genetics even though or because of the lack of genetics in their own race (in game feature. Memetics are equal to genetics for elven development)

I don't believe you can get to TL0 WITHOUT fire. Fire allows you, not only to cook food, but to harden your sticks into spears, it allows you to purify water, it allows you to clear vast tracts of land, it allows you to coral animals when hunting. It gives you light in the darkness, it keeps predators from preying on you, it keeps you from dying of hypothermia.

These questions can all be answered by magic. But when you require magic for such a fundamental aspect, I think you create a divergent TL. Your elves arn't TL2+1, they are TL0+3. Without their magic, barring some sort of racial adaption, they are less technologically advanced than any humans who ever lived. With their magic, they can approximate human technology.

Using the default Gurps Magic rules, elves are EXTREMELY powerful. If you teach every elf how to bless earth or Bless Pant from child hood, then you have the ability to have plant yields that completely dwarf anything you can get from agriculture without magic.

But they will have a radically diffierent sort of technology. Remember, to a person, startign a fire to cook food and harvest resources will be second hand. To an elf, they could make an oak tree drop early acorns, or cause berry bushes to boom and fruit, eat those, and then grow a wooden house over the years. They might be able to replicate the effects of TL2 or TL3, but they wil lgo about it in a completely alien way.

[(E)]

After the discussion going without fire is a bit too extreme.

Your right about Magic being powerful in this context.

On a side note it wasn't this group of elves that was TL 2+1 but another faction sorry I'd that wasn't clear.

The main thing I was hoping to get a handle on from this discussion was some ideas how a divergent tech tree from TL 0 could look.

The creation story for the elves as a whole in this world starts with them as a servant race to Eldar beings functioning at TL 2 + 7 (magic)

[Flyndaran]

It's that they would have to diverge before TL 0. TL 0 is late neolithic inclusive of not just fire, but bows, sight navigation, trade, primitive textiles aka cloth, etc.
Everything before the bronze age.
Humans evolved into being knowing how to create and use fire, make simple clothes, and form loose trade networks.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

There's been an idea kicking around in the anthropological/archaeological/human paleontological world now for a few years that control of fire was a necessary precondition for the development of big brains. The basic concept is that cooked food is easier to digest than uncooked food, so that by cooking our food we can reduce the size of our guts and still extract more nutrients for less energy than if eating uncooked food. Reduced gut size and less effort spent on digestion frees up more resources to develop our big brains, which then allows us to develop complex tools, complicated languages, elaborate societies, and all that jazz. I'm not an expert in the field, so I can only report what I've seen actual experts and researchers in the field say, but it seems plausible, at least.

Cooking does make plant matter easier to digest, but I've read that it actually makes meat harder to digest. Which is annoying, because meat obviously benefits greatly in the reduction in parasite load from cooking.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It's that they would have to diverge before TL 0. TL 0 is late neolithic inclusive of not just fire, but bows, sight navigation, trade, primitive textiles aka cloth, etc.
Everything before the bronze age.
Humans evolved into being knowing how to create and use fire, make simple clothes, and form loose trade networks.

Remember the Polynesians were TL0 and they conquered the Pacific. Their navigation technology is quite amazing.

And being able to grow starchy food and then cook it, seems to have been essential in creating cities of any size. Only with agriculture and either potatoes, grains, rice or something similar, could we feed larger populations. All of those need cooking to make them digestible to humans.

Related to the earlier discussion: humans have quite some local adaptation to food types, developed over the last ten thousand years or so. Examples:
- In the areas with domesticable bovines, we developed lactose tolerance.
- In areas with maize, we developed to digest it more effectively.

What I'm saying is that your Elves need to be able to eat raw potatoes, or something like that. Same thing for meat. Vegetarians not withstanding, meat is a really good brain fuel, and probably quite essential in human development as well. (Compare Gorilla to Chimpansee, the latter one is known to eat meat as part of their diet).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Cooking does make plant matter easier to digest, but I've read that it actually makes meat harder to digest. g.

I don't believe it. Provided you don't overcook it. Unless you are comparing it to carefully mallet tenderized meat.

[DocRailgun]

Nature is not averse to fire. Wildfires are part of nature's cycle - when there's too much underbrush and such the fires clear that out and unlock nutrients for new growth. It's been said that part of the reason for the massive wildfires that happen in the western US are partially caused by land management not allowing the smaller fires to happen.

Originally Posted by (E)

The wood elves(just a short hand name) choose to get closer to nature hence the aversion to fire. They also stick to one region a "great Forrest" which is for all intents and purposes a garden for them. They have no trouble surviving.

[mr beer]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Eh? When did this happen?

We eat cooked food because it's safer, not because we can't eat raw meat or veggies. I eat raw food all the time for example.

We can eat raw food of course, I don't mean to imply that raw food is not eaten by humans, but we are not evolved to subsist on a raw food diet.

Compare us to chimpanzees, our closest relative. We have tiny mouths, suitable for high-calorie, soft food that doesn't need so much chewing. We have small abdomens, we don't need giant guts because our easily digested food gets fully dealt with our smaller intestinal system. Raw foodists (who foolishly eat an entirely raw diet) suffer from a wide variety of health issues.

We're evolved to eat cooked food. Humans have controlled fire for a very long time indeed.

EDIT

Also, the main reason that we cook food is because it tastes better, not to make it safer, although of course that is a distinct ancillary benefit.