Double Drum Arena Playmat Now Funding

[JimTullis]

Parody,
Edited. Try it now if you wish.

[Sam Mitschke]

@beetle496
You don't view our actual retail expansions as expansions, and you're upset that we provided expansion cards — which can be used in play — on the record sheets.
I honestly have no idea how I can address either of those things, but you seem to be enjoying the game, at least, and that makes me genuinely happy!

@kbs66
What could a grilled cheese dropper DO in this game? That's not intended to be confrontational, either — I think it's hilarious! It can be equipped alongside the black hole dropper!

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

You don't view our actual retail expansions as expansions…

That may just be semantics on my part. In my opinion, many of the cards bundled with miniatures seem like they belong in the Core Set. In my mind, I had not thought of them as being “expansions” – but that was not really fair.

Please accept my apologies, because several of the SKUs clearly are expansions. I could/should have said that Double Drum is an excellent choice for the first new expansion. It is a nice surprise!

…and you're upset that we provided expansion cards…

Just to be clear, I mostly very much like several of the expansion card sets! For example, the Dropped Weapons Pack, the Crew Pack, and Uncle Al’s Upgrade Pack all have very strong themes — and are clearly extend the basic features of the game.

The Linked Weapon Pack has a strong theme, but it kind of seems to me that it should have been the only source of Linked Weapons.

OTOH, if there is a theme in the Armory Pack, it does not jump out to me. It contains the “Standard Machine Gun” — What could be more basic?

…which can be used in play — on the record sheets.

As I explained on that that thread, I mostly just think it was a missed opportunity to make them even more of teaching aid. I am now appreciating that they fill in a few gaps in my DA set, so that is a decent enough consolation prize.

I honestly have no idea how I can address either of those things…

The only thing I can think of is to offer a card set that is every card from Miniature Sets 2 and 4. I don’t think it was a bad decision that some cards would only be available bundled with a miniature set, but I do think that those cards should have had very strong themes, and maybe should have only included high BP weapons and items? The way things are now, cards seem very scrambled. I would like to be able to look at a card, and name the expansion pack or miniature set it came with — without looking at the small print.

…but you seem to be enjoying the game, at least, and that makes me genuinely happy!

Yes, I am very much enjoying the game! My miniatures are almost done, and once I get my second set of Player Record Sheets, I hoping to be semi-regularly hosting games at my FLGS.

[Sam Mitschke]

Right up front, thank you for your enthusiastic and positive responses. I was messing with you a bit about the expansions, but I do appreciate that you're willing to understand my point of view.

The product mix is the result of a lengthy list of design, production, manufacturing, packaging, pricing, shipping, and legacy demands that all had to meet painfully-specific standards.

The card mix itself, however, was all me and Randy...and I quite like what we did. We put a lot of effort into making the expansions feel like you're getting a good mix of stuff for your money, AND it prevented any single expansion from becoming a pay-to-win product. It would have been nice to have made them more thematic, but that was not feasible while also keeping things balanced. As it is, a player that only owns the core set can still be absolutely competitive with the player that bought six of everything.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

Right up front, thank you for your enthusiastic and positive responses.

Thanks for such a great product that makes that easy!

I was messing with you a bit about the expansions, but I do appreciate that you're willing to understand my point of view.

I did realize you were being hyperbolic, but your larger point is fair: Clearly there are expansions.

The product mix is the result of a lengthy list of design, production, manufacturing, packaging, pricing, shipping, and legacy demands that all had to meet painfully-specific standards.

I 100% believe you about this! Remarkable really.

The card mix itself, however, was all me and Randy...and I quite like what we did. We put a lot of effort into making the expansions feel like you're getting a good mix of stuff for your money, AND it prevented any single expansion from becoming a pay-to-win product.

I do like that you avoided the pay-to-win product. I agree that there is a good mix. The act of sorting cards into binders did cause to me to realize that a great amount thought and effort had gone into the choices made. The selections were very obviously not random. But absent transparency for the factors you were juggling, some aspects end up feeling arbitrary.

It would have been nice to have made them more thematic, but that was not feasible while also keeping things balanced.

I have some appreciation for the math, so my intuition is that this is almost certainly a straightforward fact. For example, bundling all the laser weapons into one miniature set probably would not have helped much, and I am sure there would be more vocal complainers than what you are getting with the approach you took.

As it is, a player that only owns the core set can still be absolutely competitive with the player that bought six of everything.

I would argue that, for high BP games, a core-only customer should not expect to be absolutely competitive with a customer who has the DA set. Also, players could decide at the start of game what cards to use: either set limits or share.

But something like most (or even all) BP 5 weapons being available only via the miniature expansions seems like it would have been reasonable. It is not OP, since everything is so nicely balanced, and having more choices for larger BP values seems reasonable (to me) as a focus for the expansions. I think I would have preferred that over having an interesting 1 BP upgrade only being available only via a miniatures set.

I do recognize that this is probably simplest and naive, given all those other tensions! Customers are going to complain about any cards being miniature locked, and an obvious pattern to that locking might just make things worse.

[Sam Mitschke]

I would argue that, for high BP games, a core-only customer should not expect to be absolutely competitive with a customer who has the DA set.

This is 100% incorrect. We spent a lot of effort to mathematically balance things to ensure that the core box would be (and remain) competitively viable. It was the primary motivation for how and why we split the cards up the way we did.

It is always possible to build uneven cars using the same BP, but that's up to the player's experience and understanding of the game. After testing and running so many demos of the game, I can absolutely build a competitive car using only cards from a 2p set, and have done so many times. Players with more options available can better tailor their builds to a preferred play style, but that doesn't mean their car will be stronger — just that their comfort level with it will be higher.

But something like most (or even all) BP 5 weapons being available only via the miniature expansions seems like it would have been reasonable.

If we had locked entire aspects of car building behind specific expansions, everyone would have been furious with us.

You're upset that we gave you a handful of bonus cards that you may not physically own (via the record sheets), and you WISH we had locked all 5BP cards behind specific expansion purchases? So you want us to provide less for your money via sleazy pay-to-play marketing methods? I'm clearly not understanding something, so I'm tapping out on this...but I'm happy to discuss other stuff!

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

@kbs66
What could a grilled cheese dropper DO in this game?

Skid results -- you ever stepped on a grilled-cheese sandwich someone's dropped on the floor?

;)

[Aleph]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Skid results -- you ever stepped on a grilled-cheese sandwich someone's dropped on the floor?

;)

Nope, I have dogs. They pretty much enforce the 5-second rule.

[HeatDeath]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

What could a grilled cheese dropper DO in this game? That's not intended to be confrontational, either — I think it's hilarious! It can be equipped alongside the black hole dropper!

A brief perusal of UACFH suggests that a dropped grill cheese sandwich would basically be an oil patch with the footprint of a mine token? Perhaps making up the shortfall in BP combat value vs. an actual oil dropper by having a significantly larger store and/or adopting the Slab rule of being droppable at the end of any MP instead of just during the firing phase?

[Sam Mitschke]

Why limit ourselves to simply dropping them when grilled cheese trebuchets could be a thing? Turreted grilled cheese trebuchets with incendiary ammo. But not TOO incendiary...just enough to be toasted properly as they slam into their targets.

I think I need more sleep...