Question - can dice be required on low-risk moves?

[Sam Mitschke]

The rules currently say that a driving roll might be required after every movement point. This changes the might to a must. Many players will have already internalized NOT checking for a driving roll on low-risk moves (unless they are accustomed to using terrain/hazards, which many casual players will never touch). It's asking all players to reprogram their understanding of a core gameplay element (movement), and therefore the change should be made prominent, rather than hiding it in the FAQ.

[baakyocalder]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

The rules currently say that a driving roll might be required after every movement point. This changes the might to a must. Many players will have already internalized NOT checking for a driving roll on low-risk moves (unless they are accustomed to using terrain/hazards, which many casual players will never touch). It's asking all players to reprogram their understanding of a core gameplay element (movement), and therefore the change should be made prominent, rather than hiding it in the FAQ.

As someone on the council who reviewed all the HackMaster rules and suggested to Kenzer & Company how they be interpreted in organized play (HackMaster Association), I approve this message.

There's a difference between obvious typos that players can usually read through, rules which need to be clarified for special cases (hazards and terrain in Car Wars) and rules which are fundamental and need to be clear.

When playing with hazards and terrain, those dice matter. I did a 13-point duel using Road Tiles and just having part of the car off the road portions and rolling a single blue die for terrain led to Out of Control situations and major damage to vehicles. Dropped weapons would be worse--sounds like I should find some live human players and we should play a game heavy on dropped weapons since I have that pack. . .

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by baakyocalder

There's a difference between obvious typos that players can usually read through, rules which need to be clarified for special cases (hazards and terrain in Car Wars) and rules which are fundamental and need to be clear.

+1 — and I understand Sam’s 5-step approach to be in this last category of “rules which are fundamental and need to be clear.”

…just having part of the car off the road portions and rolling a single blue die for terrain led to Out of Control situations and major damage to vehicles.

It does feels like a discontinuity to me for there to be such a dramatic difference between not needing to roll at all versus “easy” saves (like your single blue die, or a D1). Once you add in a couple yellow dice, every move can hurt. At speeds 4 and 5, every driving roll can be a game changer! That does keep things interesting!

The obvious way to smooth things out would be to have players roll speed dice for each and every movement. That addresses the discontinuity, but would be quite terrible for play!

How much of a hazard (change in level) is that blue die suppose to represent? Is it more like running over a 2"x4" piece of lumber or hitting a curb?

Regardless, at speed, it still seems like there should be something between 6 dice and 0. Game play works as-is, so I am not going to stress about it. But I also do not like that it very much seems to me that a single D4 90° turn is much, much safer than two D2 45° turns. Am I missing something?

At speed 4, D4 maneuver is 8 dice, but two D2 is 12 dice! If 3x D1, then 15 dice. Again, the game play works, but this seems disconnected from physics and real-life experience. I remember reading a while back that the idea is a player might take the D2, see how it goes, then evaluate if they are up for another D2. So maybe play works as intended? At present, my comfort with attempting 90° turns at speed is interfering with my willing suspension of disbelief…

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

The rules currently say that a driving roll might be required after every movement point. This changes the might to a must.

I agree that, conceptually, this is a significant change. But since driving rolls are so hazardous, players will go straight/slight/slide when they can.

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

It is possible that your driving roll consists of zero dice and no effects. In this case, the driving roll is resolved and you can move on.

Players are going to roll for maneuvers almost every turn, but maybe (on balance) not even half of all moves (since many will be straight/slight/slide). The word “possible” here does not seem like the best phrasing. I will take the liberty to suggest:

Often your driving roll consists of zero dice and no effects. In these cases, the driving roll is resolved and you can move on.

This softer wording might also make it clearer that this is not a change from the 1.0 RAW.

It's asking all players to reprogram their understanding of a core gameplay element (movement), and therefore the change should be made prominent, rather than hiding it in the FAQ.

I appreciate that a change from “might” to “must” is nominally normative, not informative, and not merely editorial. I am just not seeing a change to actual play, so I think it could be FAQ or errata.

[kjamma4]

Originally Posted by beetle496

How much of a hazard (change in level) is that blue die suppose to represent? Is it more like running over a 2"x4" piece of lumber or hitting a curb?

I don't really think you can put this in these terms - you could hit a 2x4 and lose control but hit a curb and stay in control.

The best (and also the worst) answer is that a blue die represents a 50/50 chance you lose a control token. What that means depends on your speed and your control status at the time you lose the token.

[Sam Mitschke]

@kjamma4
Well put. It simply represents additional risk.

@beetle496

But I also do not like that it very much seems to me that a single D4 90° turn is much, much safer than two D2 45° turns. Am I missing something?

One isn't safer than the other...they're just different:

One D4 at speed 4 risks up to 9 [skids/tire damage] and yields 1 ace token. The D4 is an all-in gamble.

Two D2 turns at speed 4 risks up to 12 [skids/tire damage] and yields 2 ace tokens. BUT — and you even mentioned this — if things go wrong, you can re-evaluate the move in the middle and reduce the overall risk by NOT taking the second maneuver.

It all depends on where you need your car to be and the risks you're willing to take.

Regarding my proposed driving roll rule revision:
It definitively *is* a change to how driving rolls currently work, despite the practical on-the-table usage remaining nearly identical, and I cannot rely on new players having access to — or any knowledge of — a prior ruleset.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by kjamma4

I don't really think you can put this in these terms - you could hit a 2x4 and lose control but hit a curb and stay in control.

Yes, and I deliberately picked examples that could go either way. Nominally, the blue die is for modest change in level, correct? Driving onto the shoulder at highway speeds is fairly dangerous, so I think that is a fair analog for one blue die. I am just trying to get a better sense for more of the real-world parallels, and what people think “adding one die” implies. My understanding is that it’s the piece of lumber: Trivial at low speeds, yet certainly dangerous on the highway.

I thought I was asking a pretty straightforward question, because if “adding a die” is more like hitting a curb (or maybe running over significant piece of wreckage, like a bumper), then I was missing what was meant to be modeled with the rules. It doesn’t seem to me like this particular aspect of the game needs to be quite so abstract, when most of us have experience driving. OTOH, I am all for cinema physics over realism.

In summary, I do think it is okay for a 13° slight turn to be zero dice, but a 16° turn to be six dice. It is a game, players know the rules, and can plan accordingly. I just am trying to work out the rationalization a little bit better.

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

Well put. It simply represents additional risk.

I respectfully disagree because this reply minimizes the most significant aspect of the one blue die: needing to roll at all.

One isn't safer than the other...they're just different…

Statistically, I cannot see how they might be even close. After the holiday, I might run the numbers. OTOH, it is possible that I am not giving that white die the respect it is due…

It definitively *is* a change to how driving rolls currently work, despite the practical on-the-table usage remaining nearly identical…

I agree that you cannot rely on new players having access to — or any knowledge of — a prior ruleset. Since the practical on-the-table usage is the same, I am not seeing the harm from characterizing the change as editorial. To say it is not errata or not something that might be addressed by an FAQ begs the question of what exactly is the practical on-the-table change?

[Sam Mitschke]

You will average 3.83 [bad] results per D4 turn.

You will average 2.17 [bad] results per D2 turn (so 4.33 for two D2s in a row).

Let's presume that, for whatever reason, you must make a 90-degree turn within the next two movement points, and you are faced with a fair choice between a D4 or two D2s:

All things being equal, making the D4 is better.

However, you may have equipment/crew that can mitigate bad die results, and that can make two D2s the better choice. Ranger, for example, lets you remove one die entirely from each roll...so if you remove the green die each time, it reduces the combined average from 4.33 [bad] results down to 3.33 [bad] results.

[Sam Mitschke]

My rationalization for why there's such a big difference between a slight turn and a D1 is that this is a game and was never intended to be a simulation of real-world physics. Vroom vroom pew pew!

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

My rationalization for why there's such a big difference between a slight turn and a D1 is that this is a game and was never intended to be a simulation of real-world physics. Vroom vroom pew pew!

I agree with this rationalization actually. The rules are laid out, players can plan accordingly. It is just not as intuitive as maybe it could be for a new player. I need to re-read OG CW and try to remember why the maneuvering choices seemed more like a curve and less like stepping off a cliff.

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

You will average 3.83 [bad] results per D4 turn. You will average 2.17 [bad] results per D2 turn (so 4.33 for two D2s in a row).

I agree that this part is balanced. But your example leaves off the speed dice, which makes the 90° bend at high speed such the better choice than 3x D1 turns. My recollection is that this is quite the opposite from OG CW, and does not seem to comport with RL experience.

Let's presume that, for whatever reason, you must make a 90-degree turn within the next two movement points, and you are faced with a fair choice between a D4 or two D2…

This is exactly the situation where things get interesting!

…so if you remove the green die each time, it reduces the combined average from 4.33 [bad] results down to 3.33 [bad] results.

Am I not suppose to be adding yellow speed dice into each of these rolls?

[Sam Mitschke]

But your example leaves off the speed dice

My example absolutely DOES include the speed dice, specifically at speed 4.

A D1 turn at speed 4 has an average of 1.83 [bad] results, so 3xD1 averages 5.5 [bad] results.

The same logic applies — if you have, via equipment or circumstance, the freedom to safely take a greater number less-severe turns...you should.