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Old 02-10-2021, 06:49 AM   #21
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Hi Phiwum,
Sounds like you are looking to have a small group of NPC fighters where most will be beginning fighters.

Some design points:

Fighting gargoyles leads to HTH so armor is good and DX not so much (since the +4 DX in HTH). Also fine daggers will help in HTH, and having the dagger ready would be good too.

Also they should try to outnumber the gargoyles so that some can attack from outside of HTH into the pile. This would mean missile weapons are out, mostly. Also means the melee weapon is best to do high damage to deal with the armor. And it also means a pole weapon user won't be getting engaged, so he can back up and charge again.

Also consider a utility person with a missile weapon in case they are flying to avoid combat.

So this is a squad of four such hunters. They would lead with the two sword men while the crossbow and halberd play back to avoid getting into HTH. Also, they would want a physicker at base camp.



Thug leader 34 pt fighter

ST 14
DX 11(9)
IQ 9

Leather(-4*)
Bastard Swd
Very Fine Dagger (+2 damage) (1+4 in HTH)
Talent: *Toughness x2 (4 cost)
Has sword and dagger in each hand. Thus will not need to chance drawing the dagger when engaged in HTH.


All others: 32 pt Gargoyle Hunter Thugs (limit to $1000 of equipment each)
===============================================
ST 13
DX 11
fine Halberd (+1 damage)
fine Dagger (+1 damage)

===========

ST 12
DX 12(9)
Chain (-3)
Broad Sword
fine Dagger (+1)
Has sword and dagger in each hand. Thus will not need to chance drawing the dagger when engaged in HTH.

===========

ST 12
DX 11 [14 with crossbow]
IQ 9
No Armor (-1*)

Lt Crossbow (can fire twice a turn)
fine Broad Sword (+1 damage)
fine Dagger (+1 damage)

Skills: Knife(1), Sword(1), Crossbow(1), MissileWeapons(3), Toughness1(2)*

=============

They are not perfect but they fit the bill as group of gargoyle hunting thugs.
Thanks for the suggestion, Axly. A minor error is that the Lt Crossbow only fires once per turn, not twice, since it's a crossbow and not a bow.

I've been skimping on the fine weapons, which can make a difference. I'll think about that.

The issue that remains is that while these folk can take a small number of gargoyles on, it's not clear to me how to reliably find several small bands of gargoyles and make a decent profit. You'd want to find, oh, three to four gargoyles for each fight (fewer is safer, of course, but less profit). Travel time is two to three days to the mountains and back. Figure you stay on the hunt for a week, so that's 11 days or so. A mercenary recruit earns a little over ten bucks a day, so to beat that rate, you'd want to kill nine gargoyles in a week. That could be reasonable, I suppose. You wouldn't be raking in the dough and this is a hanging offense in my world, but it's one you might well get away with.

Hcobb's suggestion of a wizard with calling makes it a lot more profitable at less risk, though there's always a chance of calling one gargoyle in a larger group who follows him to see what's going on. Sitting in a cave works for an effective ambush that nullifies many of the flight advantages of a gargoyle. The IQ 15 wizard could be a beginning character, but this is seedy work for a wizard. Still, one could be found often, especially among the greedy goblins.

I'll make some adjustments to the characters I've drawn up so that they have readied daggers. That sounds like a good idea.

Very helpful.
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Old 02-10-2021, 06:56 AM   #22
tcr25
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

What about Bola or Lasso (or maybe Net & Trident) as a gargoyle hunter skill. If gargoyles fly via limited levitation, would a bola/lasso hit on their wings (or a net entanglement) help bring them down?
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Old 02-10-2021, 08:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks for the suggestion, Axly. A minor error is that the Lt Crossbow only fires once per turn, not twice, since it's a crossbow and not a bow.
Note that he is using the Light Crossbow sniper with Missile Weapons III to qualify for "Fires every other turn, or every turn if adjDX = 14+" at ITL 109.

It's one of the odd breakpoints in Legacy edition like Fencer where the advanced combat talents were made cheaper, easier and more effective.

Light Crossbow sniper vs gargoyle worked example:

Flying target is -4 to be hit minus another point per 10 feet (ITL 104)
So 32 hexes straight up is adjDX 14 -4 (flying) -12 (height) -4 (distance with ITL 125 adjustment for Missile Weapons) = adjDX -6 (hope for an automatic hit at best)

Second turn the gargoyle is 16 hexes above the sniper so adjDX is 14 -4 (flying) -6 (height) -3 (distance) = adjDX 1 (hope for an automatic hit at best)

Third turn the gargoyle lands on the sniper and hence they are in HTH so no third crossbow shot.
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:29 AM   #24
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcr25 View Post
What about Bola or Lasso (or maybe Net & Trident) as a gargoyle hunter skill. If gargoyles fly via limited levitation, would a bola/lasso hit on their wings (or a net entanglement) help bring them down?
I'd rule that it would bring them down for purely psychological reasons. They flap their wings to fly, even though the power is levitation. I suppose that smart or educated gargoyles know the wings are an evolutionary affectation, but at the least, typical gargoyles would be felled by nets because they expect to be felled.

It's a good question though.
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:36 AM   #25
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Note that he is using the Light Crossbow sniper with Missile Weapons III to qualify for "Fires every other turn, or every turn if adjDX = 14+" at ITL 109.

It's one of the odd breakpoints in Legacy edition like Fencer where the advanced combat talents were made cheaper, easier and more effective.

Light Crossbow sniper vs gargoyle worked example:

Flying target is -4 to be hit minus another point per 10 feet (ITL 104)
So 32 hexes straight up is adjDX 14 -4 (flying) -12 (height) -4 (distance with ITL 125 adjustment for Missile Weapons) = adjDX -6 (hope for an automatic hit at best)

Second turn the gargoyle is 16 hexes above the sniper so adjDX is 14 -4 (flying) -6 (height) -3 (distance) = adjDX 1 (hope for an automatic hit at best)

Third turn the gargoyle lands on the sniper and hence they are in HTH so no third crossbow shot.
Let's talk about that third turn, since it's something I've been thinking about.

In grounded combat, an unengaged figure must first move adjacent and then initiate HTH. If he becomes engaged at this point, he can't enter HTH until the action phase.

I'd think that the gargoyle has to become engaged prior to initiating HTH. That gives the crossbowman one shot at DX 14. If he has allies adjacent, then they can strike as well. (Striking prior to HTH is important, since I've houseruled that the +4DX for prone figures does not count when striking into a hex with an ally in HTH.)

I'm uncertain on all this, so let me know if there's a rule that a flying figure dropping on an enemy can go directly into HTH in the movement phase. My gut says not.
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Old 02-10-2021, 10:26 AM   #26
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm uncertain on all this, so let me know if there's a rule that a flying figure dropping on an enemy can go directly into HTH in the movement phase. My gut says not.
Flying gargoyle above the sniper is not engaged because he is above rather than "in one of that figure’s front hexes." (ITL 101)
Also "flying creatures are not engaged by grounded ones unless they wish to be" (ITL 104)

Hence the gargoyle can use "If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move." (ITL 116) rather than "A figure must stop its movement for the turn when it becomes “engaged”" (ITL 103) followed by "If the attacking figure is engaged, he may shift onto a figure engaging him to attempt HTH" (ITL 116) or "(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready) its dagger." (ITL 103) (I'm really confused about the difference between these two personally).

So the gargoyle attempts to move into the hex, followed by the die roll for HTH response at ITL 116/117 (Rerolling 6s due to entering from above rather than in front)
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Old 02-10-2021, 12:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

Something for tactical consideration as a feature of TFT, though slightly out of the run of the mill here, is the potential application of a figure size adjustment. Reflected in the initial evaluation by phiwum, gargoyles are pointedly rated larger than mansize creatures throughout the rules, being of a physical not just figurative ST and massiveness at least 1/3 bigger. The counter for its figure is appropriately that of the full size markers shown in the Heniochus & Troll example, while a suitable human marker would be more hex contained, like that of the pikeman illustration. For a sample mechanic, in a confrontation of smaller to larger the larger figure could be given a +1 to hit or be hit through its corner- faced hexsides (left or right front or side), while the smaller is given a -1 to hit or be hit through its flatedge- faced hexsides (center front or rear).
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Old 02-10-2021, 01:36 PM   #28
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Flying gargoyle above the sniper is not engaged because he is above rather than "in one of that figure’s front hexes." (ITL 101)
Also "flying creatures are not engaged by grounded ones unless they wish to be" (ITL 104)

Hence the gargoyle can use "If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move." (ITL 116) rather than "A figure must stop its movement for the turn when it becomes “engaged”" (ITL 103) followed by "If the attacking figure is engaged, he may shift onto a figure engaging him to attempt HTH" (ITL 116) or "(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready) its dagger." (ITL 103) (I'm really confused about the difference between these two personally).

So the gargoyle attempts to move into the hex, followed by the die roll for HTH response at ITL 116/117 (Rerolling 6s due to entering from above rather than in front)
It's a fair point that the rules speak about front hexes being part of the definition of engagement, but I'm still reluctant to allow dropping in for HTH in movement. However, I reckon that RAW allows it unless someone has a different passage that suggests otherwise.

Sure does make gargoyles pretty darned good starting characters. Flight, natural armor and a punch equivalent to a broad sword. Drop in on a character for HTH (which fails 1/3 of the time) and no matter how good his weapon is, you've got a 2d attack against a fella which has a 1d-1 attack if he's lucky enough to have a dagger ready (higher for fine daggers, of course). No choice on your starting stats and a low IQ, but still, pretty darned good.

No need to waste valuable IQ points on weapon skills either!
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Old 02-10-2021, 02:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

Eight memory points minus two for Common and Literacy leaves six spells. (And possibly Brawling at 2d+1 damage.)

The real scenario has Gargoyles hunting for human kids to hand over to the chemists for $300 a head. (Don't really need the rest of the kid, unless it's an orc kid.)
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Old 02-10-2021, 07:18 PM   #30
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle hunting

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Eight memory points minus two for Common and Literacy leaves six spells. (And possibly Brawling at 2d+1 damage.)

The real scenario has Gargoyles hunting for human kids to hand over to the chemists for $300 a head. (Don't really need the rest of the kid, unless it's an orc kid.)
I wasn't considering a gargoyle as a wizard, but I suppose it works. Low starting IQ, but he's otherwise limited to low level talents which are not great.

May make a good crossbowman. He can escape anyone who engages him and if necessary fire from the air (at -4DX, so that's a desperation move with his starting stats). If he chooses not to disengage, he drops the crossbow and uses his 2d fists (no need to ready a weapon at all).
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