Examples of 4e Combat

[mook]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

Yes, that is what I am saying.

But you quotet the RAW yourself on this toppic "Whenever you suffer injury, reduce your DX and IQ [...] on your next turn only" (B419).
Which in my reading implies, that you don't suffer from it neither the turn you wehre hit nor two turn after it - but only on your next turn.

Fair enough - unless I'm mistaken though, this distinction should never actually come up in-game (though still good to hash it out).

If your opponent damages you and inflicts shock, you have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn (when all agree the shock penalty would be in effect); if you damage your opponent and take damage that inflicts shock on yourself (say from attacking unarmed), you still have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn.

The only possibility might be if you attack your opponent and are interrupted by a Wait-Attack and suffer damage that inflicts shock...but I would imagine in that case that resuming your interrupted turn is the same as 'your next turn', so even then there's no chance of incurring the shock penalty until your next chance to declare a maneuver.

Um, don't mind all that, mostly just 'thinking out loud' through the keyboard - the only place this should come up is on the 'action headers' in the examples, I agree I shouldn't put the shock penalty there until the following turn.

(Combat is beginning to remind me of my heavy Magic: the Gathering days, scrutinizing 'when does an interrupt resolve', 'when does an instant occur', etc. :D)

[LordHelmet]

Originally Posted by mook

Fair enough - unless I'm mistaken though, this distinction should never actually come up in-game (though still good to hash it out).

If your opponent damages you and inflicts shock, you have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn (when all agree the shock penalty would be in effect); if you damage your opponent and take damage that inflicts shock on yourself (say from attacking unarmed), you still have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn.[...]

I agree with you, for myself it doesn't make very much sense to delay the effects (shock) of the wound you just suffered to your next turn - of course it effects you immediately - unless I miss some special neurological mechanism that delays the effects of shock.
This is the way I play it in-game myself.

But during this discussion I reexamined the rules and just following the strikt word - it actually would mean that shock effects apply only on your next turn - which leaves very litte room for interpretation. And since you try to striktly model your examples after RAW I thought it worth being pointed out.

So after all my wish of clarification has grown and I would very much appreciate an official ruling from Kromm or someone the like.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by mook

Fair enough - unless I'm mistaken though, this distinction should never actually come up in-game (though still good to hash it out).

If your opponent damages you and inflicts shock, you have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn (when all agree the shock penalty would be in effect);

You may not have the opportunity to do anything, but you may well have the need to roll against shock-affected DX or IQ- resistance checks against spells or afflictions, losing balance from an attack, perception checks (if Will/Per also suffer -4, which I'd say they do), Quick Contests, resisting feints, etc.

And that's also why it has to be defined for "the whole of your next turn", as from your first action in the turn after being injured until you can act again the turn after that, not just for the part of your turn where you take an action.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

I agree with you, for myself it doesn't make very much sense to delay the effects (shock) of the wound you just suffered to your next turn - of course it effects you immediately - unless I miss some special neurological mechanism that delays the effects of shock.

This is possibly one of the aspects of the game where playability trumps realism. It's simpler to keep track of shock on your turn rather than based on when you were injured, especially if you have been hit by several attacks afflicting shock.

[LordHelmet]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

This is possibly one of the aspects of the game where playability trumps realism. It's simpler to keep track of shock on your turn rather than based on when you were injured, especially if you have been hit by several attacks afflicting shock.

So you do agree on the very strikt interpretation of RAW (B419) that shock applies only during the next turn after you suffered damage? And by next turn the time between choosing your maneuver until you chose your next maneuver is meant.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

Be careful, one is for the attacker and the other for the defender - so perhaps that got you confused.

Aha! Doh! Tables... Thank you8-)

So if you attack whilst prone you get -4 but your defense is at -3.
So Close Combat example 1, Turn 2 (?) when Zach is prone after the injury to his hand his defence is actually at -3 for being Prone PLUS -4 for being Stunned (B548-550)... Yup, it's in there now. Nasty:)

If your HP is 10, crippling an extremity takes >1/3 HP or 4 wound points , yes? Is it dismembered (destroyed, irrevocably crushed etc) at >2/3 HP, i.e. 7 wp, or 2xCrippling wp, i.e. 8 wp?

How about if the damage was 7 from a pi- weapon, i.e. 3.5 wp... Crippled hand/foot or just darn close?

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

So you do agree on the very strikt interpretation of RAW (B419) that shock applies only during the next turn after you suffered damage? And by next turn the time between choosing your maneuver until you chose your next maneuver is meant.

Forgive me if I've missed something but would it make a difference to your discussion that the person suffering the shock does so for his full turn after he is injured, whenever it is, i.e. whether this "second" or the next: if fast person hits first, slow person suffers shock this second (and until his next action); if slow person hits first, then Fast person is in shock from next second...

Is it simpler to say, you're in Shock from the instant you are hurt until you have completed your next Action?

[Maz]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Is it simpler to say, you're in Shock from the instant you are hurt until you have completed your next Action?

I think so yes. That's how I use the rules... because it's simpler.

[mook]

Originally Posted by Maz

I think so yes. That's how I use the rules... because it's simpler.

That's the way I play it in-game as well, but for the examples I think we're trying to ferret out how exactly the rules are intended to work, as opposed to the way we make them work.

EDIT: Seeking counsel from the community at large: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=537205

[mook]

Gah - this is at least the second time I've done this, most uncool. I could've sworn I checked the FAQ, but there it is, clear as day:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.5.2
"You take shock penalties the moment you get hurt, and suffer them until the end of your next turn."

Good enough for me.