New Reality Seeds

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

Unknown in 1948, the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion. Without a wish to restart the Sun, humanity is doomed.

One can't especially blame the Pacifist for not knowing what powered the sun, but it had actually been known for about a decade. The sun wouldn't go out immediately. It is very opaque as well as very large and it takes thousands of years for heat to make its way from the core to the surface.

However, given that all nuclear reactors and many routine physics experiments would immediately stop working, it would be obvious that something had changed. If the pacifist made it known what he'd done, people would rapidly start asking him to fix it, and since he can't, the world is doomed. Cue religious outbreaks, occult cults, and many other kinds of reaction.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by johndallman

One can't especially blame the Pacifist for not knowing what powered the sun, but it had actually been known for about a decade. The sun wouldn't go out immediately. It is very opaque as well as very large and it takes thousands of years for heat to make its way from the core to the surface.

I wasn't sure exactly when that detail was figured out. But I could easily see someone making a wish that poorly thought out even in the modern era.

I had completely forgotten about the opacity of the sun. That makes it much more feasible for people to visit this world.

Originally Posted by johndallman

However, given that all nuclear reactors and many routine physics experiments would immediately stop working, it would be obvious that something had changed. If the pacifist made it known what he'd done, people would rapidly start asking him to fix it, and since he can't, the world is doomed. Cue religious outbreaks, occult cults, and many other kinds of reaction.

Yeah, this would make for an interesting adventure. I could see Infinity or Centrum trying to study this phenomenon. Evacuation would be problematic for Infinity. Either they would need to break the secret before evacuating or wait until this worldline is depopulated due to mass starvation. Both courses of action would be controversial on Homeline.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

...
Pacifist-2

1. Nuclear weapons don't work
2. Armies can't cross borders
3. Explosives don't work

These wishes basically result in a world similar to what Astromancer described. Espionage and biowarfare are the only practical way to circumvent this wish set. Jumpers have unwittingly spread several devastating plagues to other worldlines from this world...
...

There are also substantially fewer large-scale construction projects (roads, railways, hydroelectric dams, etc) because the inconveniently-placed hills cannot simply be dynamited into easily-moved rubble. Also, building demolition becomes building disassembly.

If the local time is more than a decade after the wishes were made, visitors from Homeline are going to notice a lack of some things they would otherwise expect to see, and the presence of more than a few large buildings that they wouldn't expect.

Also, does the internal combustion engine count as a device that harnesses small fuel-air explosive reactions, for the purpose of that wish? I can't see why it wouldn't... so steam-powered engines and (primitive?) electric cars would be everywhere.

EDIT: Oh, and chemical weapons still work, too. I can see a brave volunteer flying a steam-powered zeppelin to a target city in order to drop mustard gas on it, fully expecting that he will be intercepted and killed before he can return home...

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

Pacifist-2
1.Nuclear weapons don't work
2.Armies can't cross borders
3.Explosives don't work
These wishes basically result in a world similar to what Astromancer described. Espionage and biowarfare are the only practical way to circumvent this wish set. Jumpers have unwittingly spread several devastating plagues to other worldlines from this world...


Pacifist-3
1.Nuclear weapons don't work
2.No one wants to go to war
3.I want a ham sandwich
I'm sorry, I couldn't think of a third wish for this one that wasn't redundant. I think this is closer to what Astromancer was talking about than Pacifist-2.

Pacifist-4
1.Nuclear weapons don't work
2.Humans cannot kill other humans without a personal motive
3.Weapons cannot kill more than one person at a time

Pacifist-2 has got a huge verbal loophole that simply changes the way wars are fought. Although he probably meant that no members of any nation's armed services can cross outside it's own national border with hostile intent, that's not what the wish actually says.

So navies, air forces and the U.S. Marines can cross borders and armies can also cross borders as long as they don't cross in co-ordinated formations larger than corps-sized. Being army-sized or larger once they've crossed the border is okay. Another unforeseen problem is that it didn't specify the kind of border. If people start referring to their state, county or city boundaries as borders, armies can't cross them, either. Likewise, if one stops referring to the borders of Lithuania as borders, Russia can send reinforcements to Kaliningrad oblast with no problems.

Pacifist-3 is effective for preventing war but doesn't prevent "police actions", "insurgencies" or "counter-insurgencies." It probably does rule out "unconventional warfare", "guerilla wars" and "asymmetric wars".

Pacifist-4 is going to be interesting. If you can only kill if you have a personal motive and you are limited to killing people one-by-one, one outgrowth of that will be recruiting at least a few individuals who bear a grudge for the last war fought. Also, expect to see militaries foster the tight personal bonds that exist in small-units (eg. squads), to company and battalion-level, so that each casualty is personal motivation to the entire unit. There may even be some bonds formed between small-units of differing units to get the whole formation involved eventually.

Just to make life boring, here's Pacifist-5 where there's not even a cold war going on.

Pacifist-5
1. No one desires to take anything away from anyone that has claimed for his own use while he's making use of it.
2. No one wants to make destructive or careless use of anything that could be used by others afterwards. (this doesn't prevent someone from killing a cow for it's hide, for example but they couldn't render the waste carcass unfit for butchering as a byproduct of the process.
3. Everyone understands everyone else's motivations well enough to be distinguish actual, active malice from lack of foresight and lack of appreciation of how others view one's actions.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Pacifist-2 has got a huge verbal loophole that simply changes the way wars are fought. Although he probably meant that no members of any nation's armed services can cross outside it's own national border with hostile intent, that's not what the wish actually says.

So navies, air forces and the U.S. Marines can cross borders and armies can also cross borders as long as they don't cross in co-ordinated formations larger than corps-sized. Being army-sized or larger once they've crossed the border is okay. Another unforeseen problem is that it didn't specify the kind of border. If people start referring to their state, county or city boundaries as borders, armies can't cross them, either. Likewise, if one stops referring to the borders of Lithuania as borders, Russia can send reinforcements to Kaliningrad oblast with no problems.

Good points. I wrote the Pacifist under the assumptions that he isn't a lawyer and is genre blind regarding genies. So the Pacifist would inevitably create some loopholes. At least this Pacifist hasn't doomed humanity to a slow death as the sun dies!

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Pacifist-4 is going to be interesting. If you can only kill if you have a personal motive and you are limited to killing people one-by-one, one outgrowth of that will be recruiting at least a few individuals who bear a grudge for the last war fought. Also, expect to see militaries foster the tight personal bonds that exist in small-units (eg. squads), to company and battalion-level, so that each casualty is personal motivation to the entire unit. There may even be some bonds formed between small-units of differing units to get the whole formation involved eventually.

I like this. It is an obvious workaround that is quite feasible. Relatively inexpensive compared to the alternative of trying to pump out propaganda capable of giving the entire army a personal motive.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by robkelk

There are also substantially fewer large-scale construction projects (roads, railways, hydroelectric dams, etc) because the inconveniently-placed hills cannot simply be dynamited into easily-moved rubble. Also, building demolition becomes building disassembly.

If the local time is more than a decade after the wishes were made, visitors from Homeline are going to notice a lack of some things they would otherwise expect to see, and the presence of more than a few large buildings that they wouldn't expect.

I hadn't thought of those consequences of the "no explosives" wish. So I feel this is a realistic oversight for the Genre Blind Pacifist. Curse you, Genre Blind Pacifist! You have doomed our civilization yet again!

I like this as an unintended consequence of the wish. Figuring out why the "armies" of this world are acting so strangely and why construction is so different would make for a good adventure.

Originally Posted by robkelk

Also, does the internal combustion engine count as a device that harnesses small fuel-air explosive reactions, for the purpose of that wish? I can't see why it wouldn't... so steam-powered engines and (primitive?) electric cars would be everywhere.

Considering that the genie is apparently capable of permanently disabling all nuclear weapons and explosives on the entire planet, I highly doubt ICEs would go untouched.

The good news is that modern cars are the product of roughly a century of continuous innovation. Electric cars might become quite advanced in this worldline if they get a similar treatment. Infinity and Centrum would both be interested in a world like this for their advanced energy storage technology.

Originally Posted by robkelk

EDIT: Oh, and chemical weapons still work, too. I can see a brave volunteer flying a steam-powered zeppelin to a target city in order to drop mustard gas on it, fully expecting that he will be intercepted and killed before he can return home...

Yet another oversight by the Genre Blind Pacifist!

[PTTG]

In this version, the pacifist felt firmly that it would be immoral to change human nature.

Wish 1: All devices meant to harm another do not function.

Wish 2: All poisons disperse or decay harmlessly when put into public food, water, or air supplies.

Wish 3: Some private wish belonging to the pacifist. Apparently no major effects.

Guns now do not work, nor do tanks, bombs, catapults and crossbows, and man-traps. A chainsaw can cut a cord of wood, but as soon as someone picks it up to threaten someone else, it jams.

The only exceptions are things just too plain simple NOT to function - a sword, a spear, a club. A simple bow might even work, but a compound bow inevitably unstrings itself or finds the bearings burst.

It's just barely possible to drop rocks on someone from an airplane, but beware - if the pilot knows what you're doing, then the purpose of the plane becomes harm, and it might suddenly stop working...

The second wish renders chemical and biological warfare impossible, as well as radioactive attacks. However, there's a small loophole here- it's possible to assassinate someone specific with poison.

The end result is that armies fall back a few hundred years... spears and swords rule the day, archery becomes the main artillery, and martial arts becomes urgently important.

[scc]

Actually his second wish will only work against chemical warfare that results in death, knockout drugs will be unaffected, as will biological and radiological weapons as they aren't poison.

As for large scale effects, well the USSR will probably immediately be engulfed in a civil war and the US will probably follow it in short order and China is already in one at this time.

Beyond that as firearms tend to favor smaller groups, I can easily see decolonization not happening and a rise in monarchs as states threaten to crumble

[Curmudgeon]

Thinking about it, Pacificist-1 is in big trouble and can expect large scale starvation in a year or two. He forgot to give flight back to pollinating insects.

Pacifist-6 (PTTG's wish list contribution) may be a treeless world as wish 2: "All poisons disperse or decay harmlessly when put into public food, water, or air supplies." didn't limit the wish to the human public. Trees that use biological poisons, such as the bark of the cinnamon tree, as defenses against insects might well be rendered ineffective against social insects such as ants, termites and bees.

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Thinking about it, Pacificist-1 is in big trouble and can expect large scale starvation in a year or two. He forgot to give flight back to pollinating insects.

Pacifist-6 (PTTG's wish list contribution) may be a treeless world as wish 2: "All poisons disperse or decay harmlessly when put into public food, water, or air supplies." didn't limit the wish to the human public. Trees that use biological poisons, such as the bark of the cinnamon tree, as defenses against insects might well be rendered ineffective against social insects such as ants, termites and bees.

The addition of "poisons meant for humans" to wish 2 would save the trees, and semantically, "poison" does not specify the mechanism or effect, merely that something is a harmful substance. Tear gas, "knockout drugs," and fallout all qualify. Harmful radiation (and most other non-substance threats,) such as neutrons would require some kind of machine to produce it. The best you could do is get, like, hundreds of separate people to bring lumps of refined uranium (all of it stolen from purely civilian refineries, as highly enriched uranium requires a machine specifically made to harm people) to some random basement in a target city. They all drop it down a pit or something and eventually there's a radioactive hot spot.