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Old 07-26-2021, 10:07 AM   #31
Emerikol
 
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Of course, there's the question of why you want this. Is it primarily to give non-mages a reason to have FP? You probably aren't going to see it being that useful in that case - you're typically looking at a low FP cost per battle, and unless running a frantic scenario, the characters are likely to have enough time after each battle to rest and recover. If you're instead looking to simplify things, consider just... not bothering to track FP lost in combat.
You may be right. If all you end up doing is using up one or two FP in a battle then resting right after is a no brainer. If you give the non-mages some FP burning options then those will be the FP burners and not regular combat.
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Old 07-26-2021, 10:38 AM   #32
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What if the vampires are wearing trauma plates? You're not going to be driving wooden stakes through DR 35. :)
Going toe-to-toe with a supernatural predator as normal human with the intention to just 'jab them in the heart' is probably a really bad idea even without trauma plates. Might be easier to just beat them with a baseball bat and finish them off with the wooden stake.

Mostly vampires are best dealt with by handing them a nice bouquet of Garlic Flowers. ...or otherwise abusing whatever their weaknesses are.
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Old 07-26-2021, 10:55 AM   #33
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Higher tech armour. Not always fighting in wide open spaces. High tech blades with more damage, balanced, armour divisors. Accuracy of weapons only helps if you have Gunslinger or you aim. If you aim, there's a round (at least) of closure. If they have Gunslinger it's reasonable the melee have Weapon Master.

In fact, in higher tech space opera, for example, we find a *lot* of benefit in having some high tech blades and being able to use them.

Of course ranged weapons have an advantage, but if it happens all the time, well, I'd suggest reading Kromm's latest How to be GURP GM - Combat :-)
I tend to have a lot of interior-fights, but usually the only situation were melee really wins is when stealth is important.

In the Sci-Fi I run I've given many melee weapons really high armor-divisors, while I've nerfed both the damage of ranged weapons and the DR values of all armor (especially heavy Armor like Space/Power Armor which is otherwise great for low-mobility bullet-sprayers).

Though even in close-distance situations I feel the Gunslinger with Guns-18 and an automatic weapon generally comes out ahead of the Weapon Master with Broadsword-18. The Gunslinger can pretty much go where he wants, use cover, and pretty much attack anything he can see. Sword-guy isn't in a great spot unless he can flank them somehow. (Edit: which mind you the Gunslinger can also do comparably well)
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Old 07-26-2021, 02:48 PM   #34
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The thing is, a laser rifle gets 6d(2), with Acc 12, RoF 10, and a 700 yard 1/2D range. That's the same effective penetration, more damage, more range, and with that Acc and RoF it will most likely land 5-10 hits, making it very hard to dodge all of them. Even without time spent aiming it's pretty lethal.
As I said, if you have large, open areas, the ranged weapon wins. It's pretty boring if all your fight occur in such terrain :-)

Also, lasers are broken in GURPS. The accuracy can be combat breaking. If you do that, you might as well allow magic melee weapons. Blasters, for example are +3 for a pistol and +5 for a carbine. I get why lasers are rated as being so accurate, it's just annoying (and we never use them for that reason - it's just not fun).
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Old 07-26-2021, 02:53 PM   #35
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I tend to have a lot of interior-fights, but usually the only situation were melee really wins is when stealth is important.

In the Sci-Fi I run I've given many melee weapons really high armor-divisors, while I've nerfed both the damage of ranged weapons and the DR values of all armor (especially heavy Armor like Space/Power Armor which is otherwise great for low-mobility bullet-sprayers).

Though even in close-distance situations I feel the Gunslinger with Guns-18 and an automatic weapon generally comes out ahead of the Weapon Master with Broadsword-18. The Gunslinger can pretty much go where he wants, use cover, and pretty much attack anything he can see. Sword-guy isn't in a great spot unless he can flank them somehow. (Edit: which mind you the Gunslinger can also do comparably well)
Stealth is an important aspect of it. Also, using guns that aren't lasers with stupidly high ACC. And balanced, bonded melee weapons bring you +2 to hit, allowing you to target easily (and you can use targeted attacks, too), or trade skill to reduce defences.

Of course a gun is more powerful. That's why modern armies use them instead of swords. But the notion that melee needs to be weak or has not place in a modern or sci-fi game is, to my mind, either simply wrong or the sign that not a lot of imagination is going into the combat environment.
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Old 07-26-2021, 09:06 PM   #36
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

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As I said, if you have large, open areas, the ranged weapon wins. It's pretty boring if all your fight occur in such terrain :-)
All the rifleman needs is more space than the melee fighter can cross in a turn, or an obstacle to interpose.
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Also, lasers are broken in GURPS. The accuracy can be combat breaking. If you do that, you might as well allow magic melee weapons. Blasters, for example are +3 for a pistol and +5 for a carbine. I get why lasers are rated as being so accurate, it's just annoying (and we never use them for that reason - it's just not fun).
I down-rated their accuracy, and I'm working on more nerfs (rate of fire is probably the next thing to go). However, the accuracy is only part of the problem. Rcl1 and automatic fire is at least as big a problem - it lets them land many hits relaibly, and that makes them very hard to dodge.

That said, I'm okay with ranged weapons beating out melee in my SF in general - that's one of the reasons we humans invented the things.
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Old 07-26-2021, 10:55 PM   #37
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All the rifleman needs is more space than the melee fighter can cross in a turn, or an obstacle to interpose.
Range and *speed* are factors, not just range, and also things like cover, environment, and other people perhaps suppressing while the melee approaches. Even bad shots pose a risk, meaning you might need to keep your head down. Then there's camouflage and stealth and flanking and diversions and distractions and so on.

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I down-rated their accuracy, and I'm working on more nerfs (rate of fire is probably the next thing to go). However, the accuracy is only part of the problem. Rcl1 and automatic fire is at least as big a problem - it lets them land many hits relaibly, and that makes them very hard to dodge.
Ammunition. If you go full automatic (suppressing fire) you run out of ammo pretty quickly. And Rcl1 probably means lasers? Lasers are broken with Rcl and ACC.

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That said, I'm okay with ranged weapons beating out melee in my SF in general - that's one of the reasons we humans invented the things.
Certainly. It should be an advantage most of the time. If it's an unassailable advantage all of the time, then I suspect something is broken.
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Old 07-26-2021, 11:12 PM   #38
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Certainly. It should be an advantage most of the time. If it's an unassailable advantage all of the time, then I suspect something is broken.
They're not at all unassailable. Armor that will stop TL10 Laser Rifles is quite available to Tl 10 militaries. After that there are things like smart grenades and missiles that actually outrange the lasers. Then you get into drones.

It's just that kung fu lessons will not let ordinary humans compete. Nothing broken about that.
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Old 07-26-2021, 11:49 PM   #39
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They're not at all unassailable. Armor that will stop TL10 Laser Rifles is quite available to Tl 10 militaries. After that there are things like smart grenades and missiles that actually outrange the lasers. Then you get into drones.

It's just that kung fu lessons will not let ordinary humans compete. Nothing broken about that.
We're not talking about unarmed combat. And I'm not talking about TL appropriate armour against arms. That's all fine.

On your notes above, the TL10 armour would allow someone to close range. once in CC, the laser rifle is at a disadvantage, as it should be. If that's working and can happen on occasion, that's fine.

What I'm talking about it setting environments in which it's impossible to close against a ranged weapon. If that occurs, then something is broken.

Make the combat field varied and interesting. I recommend Kromm's new How to be a GURPS GM - Combat - it covers these concepts very well.

In short, there's no need for melee to be weak. It needs only be situationally appropriate.
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Old 07-27-2021, 05:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Fatigue for Warriors

Hey guys,
What in the world do laser rifles have to do with non-magic using fatigue? I think this conversation has gotten derailed.
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