GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 5: Demons

[Hide]

Nice material, the index in Chapter 3 is a great addition!

I just need small advice here, how do you gauge the monster's power-level? How do you know how many and what monsters pose the right challenge for the players?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by dcarson

So how suitable is this for a Monster Hunters campaign?

I would add Homogenous to all the ones that aren't already Diffuse, so they aren't shredded too easily by firearms.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Hide

I just need small advice here, how do you gauge the monster's power-level? How do you know how many and what monsters pose the right challenge for the players?

I'm quite certain this has been discussed to some great extent on this forum. From what I understand, combat encounter balancing in GURPS is much less a science and much more a art. Honestly, I'm inclined to not scale encounters to the PCs power. I feel like (modern editions of) DnD has encouraged the bad habit of letting players always assume that any given encounter is appropriately scaled so that they have a reasonable chance of winning. Sometimes fleeing is the best option.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

I'm quite certain this has been discussed to some great extent on this forum (...)

I understand what you mean. But let me explain, my impression is that things are more standardized in Dungeon Fantasy than in other GURPS materials.

There’s an important number of official GURPS DF character templates that were built on a 250 CP budget, so I was wondering if the monsters created using these guidelines would tend to fall within this “power level”.

For example, if you pick a Lilithid, a couple of 250 CP characters might win easily. But what about a couple of 125 CP characters? How do you tweak the monster so it is not considered boss level? Do you take the monster and divide its stats by 2? What are its qualities?

The material briefly mentions there are “fodder”, “worthy” or “boss” monsters but then it refers you to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: Dungeons. I found that the explanation provided in the aforementioned publication is quite clear, but I was wondering if there was something as clear in the newer material (something like, boss level: "Any attack might be lethal"). There are several hints scattered along the new guidelines, but I have the impression it is hard to pick said hints when you are new to GURPS.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Hide

I understand what you mean. But let me explain, my impression is that things are more standardized in Dungeon Fantasy than in other GURPS materials.

There’s an important number of official GURPS DF character templates that were built on a 250 CP budget, so I was wondering if the monsters created using these guidelines would tend to fall within this “power level”.

For example, if you pick a Lilithid, a couple of 250 CP characters might win easily. But what about a couple of 125 CP characters? How do you tweak the monster so it is not considered boss level? Do you take the monster and divide its stats by 2? What are its qualities?

The material briefly mentions there are “fodder”, “worthy” or “boss” monsters but then it refers you to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: Dungeons. I found that the explanation provided in the aforementioned publication is quite clear, but I was wondering if there was something as clear in the newer material (something like, boss level: "Any attack might be lethal"). There are several hints scattered along the new guidelines, but I have the impression it is hard to pick said hints when you are new to GURPS.

I haven't picked up Demons yet (although a codified demon design system intrigues me), so I can't speak for the meaning of its contents with confidence. I hope what I say makes sense, even I'm not the most adept at GURPS or GM'ing but I have to try. :)

If the demons were built with points and we knew the totals for them, even that may not be indicative of "power level". I think it takes a GM's educated guess to figure what might be a fair threat to the PCs, based on what the stats of the demon are. Can the PCs consistently down the demon (with or without casualties)? One sure fire way to see what results you want is to do a practice fight with some premade characters at whatever point totals and pit them against the demon you've made, then tweak the stats to taste after.

If I'm guessing right is that Demons is too opaque in terms of how to go about classifying fodder/worthies/bosses? Hmm. Well, if we get the gist of their threat level from their stats as we understand them then it ought to be clear for the GM as to how they should be classified. If these are some spooky scary demons that'll shank these adventurers like a shish kabob all while not going down as fast as you'd like, consider using the advise within the "Combat Rules" sidebar in Dungeons under the subheader “And Stay Down!”.

[b-dog]

I liked this book a lot. I would like to have some rules for embued holy items like holy water that are not just mundane holy water but that supernaturally damage demons due to it being embued with holy essence . Also I would like some tempting demons that slowly steadily weaken the Will of the PCs like how hit points weaken the HT of PCs. Also I would like some rules on controlling demons especially for the demonologist. Maybe there could be a spell that frees the demon from it service like being a guardian of a temple so that the demonologist can re-command it to serve the demonologist instead.

[b-dog]

I liked this book a lot. I would like to have some rules for embued holy items like holy water that are not just mundane holy water but that supernaturally damage demons due to it being embued with holy essence . Also I would like some tempting demons that slowly steadily weaken the Will of the PCs like how hit points weaken the HT of PCs. Also I would like some rules on controlling demons especially for the demonologist. Maybe there could be a spell that frees the demon from it service like being a guardian of a temple so that the demonologist can re-command it to serve the demonologist instead.

[b-dog]

One thing I liked was the description of how demons materialized in the mortal realm. I sort of got the impression that demons created a physical body from Infernal energies that are not really like ordinary matter. That got me thinking about the body parts of demons after they are killed and what kind of treasure they would be. Maybe demon bones could be used to make weapons or staffs for wizards and unholy clerics. Maybe demon blood or ichor could be poisonous, acidic or even turn those that drink it into undead or monsters. Maybe the eyes could cause fear or hypnotize. The organs could provide magical energies or be toxic. In any case they could be variable by type but I imagine the only common thing would be that they would be degraded by holy water, exoricism, and being on high holy sanctity areas. I think a great book would be to have a book with the monster parts for each of the demons that are in the Dungeon Fantasy books.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Hide

I just need small advice here, how do you gauge the monster's power-level? How do you know how many and what monsters pose the right challenge for the players?

I realize this is an older comment, but I know one attempt at this can be found in "It's a Threat!" (Pyramid #3/77), which gives guidelines for calculating a given character/creature's Combat Effectiveness Rating, and how to compare this between characters to get an idea of how the fight is likely to go. Notably, if memory serves, CER is based on the target's final stats, and is largely divorced from point value - making it usable even if you don't know how many points the character is worth (this also means it can incorporate gear into the rating, which in many cases is very important - a warrior clad in furs and armed with a simple stick is less of a threat than one outfitted in fine mythril mail and armed with a powerful magical sword, even if they are otherwise identical). This also means that how you built the character matters a great deal to the end value, which is similarly useful - a [125] bookworm is unlikely to stand much chance in a fight against a [125] combat monster.

I suspect the recent How to Be a GURPS GM: Combat Encounters may have some wisdom to share as well, but I don't have that book.

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I just said they worked that way – GURPS is full of examples of that mechanic (death elixirs, many poisons, etc.). Nothing in this work was built on points because I firmly believe that numerous abilities with no fair cost in the hands of PCs (who act in whatever chaotic, game-breaking way the players want) are fine for monsters (who act in accordance with the GM's direction for the adventure and campaign). But that one would be easy to build on points: Xd damage with Resistible on (X/2)d of it.

It seems as though some area spells might offer a chance to reduce damage though maybe a DX or Dodge roll to resist and not a HT one.