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Old 05-21-2021, 08:59 AM   #1
LokRobster
 
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Default [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Pardon the long post - but its base concept is GETTING NEW PLAYERS INTO GURPS! (via the new Delvers To Grow)
(sorry my link-fu is failing here, please utilize your Research skill to find)
Theotrical Question:
Why are you here?

I love GURPS and its flexibility. I typically buy and read GUPRS books about 10-50x more than I actually *play*. I enjoy the forums for the stories and the world idea overviews, play reports, applications of rules for fun gameplay and world building. The forums often have cool ideas and anecdotes of folks' experiences that are superfun to read and be part of.

I have an increasingly lesser interest in the "point-build" discussions; i don't find it that fun or entertaining - but obviously lots of others do - that's what this forum is mostly about. I have stopped recommending the SJG forums as a place for new players and GMs to come and find out about the game - or warn them that most posts will be too deep for them until they understand the intricacies of what our community is interested in.

For about 20 years, i didn't care a whit about Dungeon Fantasy. I ignored the orginal DF line... until DFRPG. I saw "This is a tool to get New Players! New GURPS-ians!" and I dove in accordingly. I've been successful at adding one teen-ager to our ranks! Yay! He's a clever fellow and has been GMing a DFRPG campaign for his friends and siblings. I love the DFRPG forums and their attention to story and ice weasels.

Last year i had a business trip to Portland OR and during some downtime I convinced some family there to get into DFRPG with me... over the next few evenings, I sat down with a brother-in-law, 2 neices and a nephew to make some characters and play. I spent about 1-1.5 hours, seperately, with each player to help them build a character they would love playing and be connected to (because they built it). Then my business trip ended and we never actually played yet! I still plan to pull the group together and do something online together remotely, but it's just not the same.

With Delvers to Grow, I could have started a game the first evening!

That's the AMAZEBALLS of this supplement. Sure, you don't care about DF genre, or low-point adventurers... but imagine getting your young friends and relations INTO A GAME. Intro to play, make characters, and ACTUAL PLAY in an hour? Sure, it's not 'Real GURPS', or Old West, or Sci-Fi, or Modern Horror - but it's a gateway drug. Once exposed to the flexibility and options of RP and combat options of GURPS, no other game's rules will hold up (my feelings as a fanatic).

In the future, Gaming Ballistic will develop a Modern/Sci-fi take on GURPS, and I believe it will be great too. But get your young'uns started NOW! Start on Fantasy and then expand to other genres you really love. Get in now on the $150 level (DF box set, Monsters2, Delvers to Grow books pdf and print) and gift it to someone you think will 'get in' and hook 'em.

We need new blood, new players, and new interest. This project is the way to do it!

So let it be written, so let it be done.

btw, I love the Nordland world and its stories...
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Last edited by LokRobster; 05-22-2021 at 09:44 PM. Reason: My links done broke, don’t use kickstarter’s Embed function to make a link for posting...
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:30 AM   #2
Tymathee
 
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

I never quite get why there's such a distaste for the dungeon fantasy genre... it's either because
  • They've played it for years (maybe decades!) and lost interest or grew to despise it
  • For the sake of being a contrarian
  • Were never interested in the first place... although this may be the prior reason in disguise

I then fear that such players and GMs voicing this distaste are in turn unwittingly turning away potentially new role-players to table-top gaming. It is, after all, the most popular genre of TTRPGs so if this is what they're hearing than they just might never sit down to play at all. Meaning less new bloods for GURPS. All this exciting new GURPS DF/DFRPG content could likely be ushering in a more optimistic era with more people to join the hobby... but the needless snobbery within the community does us no favors. Let people enjoy what they want, even if its good ol' smashing down dungeon doors to murder monsters and take their stuff.

That being said, Delvers to Go seems like an amazing product that both provides accessibility to play and adds more depth to the dungeon fantasy experience. I want it!
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Old 05-21-2021, 10:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
I never quite get why there's such a distaste for the dungeon fantasy genre... it's either because
  • They've played it for years (maybe decades!) and lost interest or grew to despise it
  • For the sake of being a contrarian
  • Were never interested in the first place... although this may be the prior reason in disguise
Elitism is a problem that tends to crop up in most hobbies, yeah. Related to your point two, some people won't want to play anything in the DF genre because it's associated with That Other Game, and everyone knows how bad the people who play that are, best not get any on you.

If I ever get around to acquiring a gaming group, I'll keep Delvers to Grow in mind as a quick-start option to introduce them to GURPS.
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Old 05-21-2021, 10:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
I never quite get why there's such a distaste for the dungeon fantasy genre... it's either because
  • They've played it for years (maybe decades!) and lost interest or grew to despise it
  • For the sake of being a contrarian
  • Were never interested in the first place... although this may be the prior reason in disguise
I started out playing D&D in the 1970s, before the first edition of AD&D was a gleam in Gary Gygax's eyes. Now it's "been there, done that" for me. I've done "dungeon crawl" episodes in a few campaigns (in fact I'm about to do one in my current RuneQuest II campaign this weekend), but it's just not my default mode. I'm aware that it's the most popular genre and campaign form for roleplayers by and large, but it doesn't entertain me enough for me to seek it out; I like campaigns that are intensive in dialogue and characterization, and if I'm going to play in one that emphasizes physical action, what appeals to me is superheroes rather than dungeon crawlers. But more power to those whose tastes differ!
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Old 05-21-2021, 10:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

First, let me say I'm really glad the Delvers To Go Kickstarter has hit its goal and been successful. I hope it is the beginning of a long-term collaboration between SJG and GB that produces tons of great products and gamers. I would have liked to support the Kickstarter myself, but I didn't.

I've been really reluctant to say this on these forums, but if you're talking about getting people into GURPS and asking them to support at the $150 level, here's a big issue I have with the Gaming Ballistic Kickstarter. It's too expensive.

Right now, on Amazon, the Dungeon Fantasy Role Playing Game box set (it's not the first thing that comes up when you type in those words - in fact you have to scroll down the page a lot - at least on my Amazon page) is selling for $59.83, down from about $67. I got my box set on Amazon, a couple of years ago, for closer to $75, if I recall. On Warehouse 23, the box set is selling for $79.95 - or just $40 for the pdf version. Monsters 2, on Amazon, is $24.95 - for a 55-page book. The book is the same price on Warehouse 23 but you can get the pdf instead there for only $15.

I don't know exactly how long the Delvers To Go set is going to be - though it sounds as though, with the Build a Bjorn booklet and The Crypt of Krysuvik, the whole package is going to be in the neighborhood of 120 pages? That would be consistent with the length of some of GB's other books. The Kickstarter is asking people to pay - I think - approximately 40 cents a page for these books - for the print versions. That's a lot. I went through and calculated the page count of everything included in the "I Want it All" level of support, and it came out about the same: somewhere around 40 cents a page, though I was doing a quick average on my calculator. I'd be happy to be corrected about this calculation.

I understand that folks have to pay rent: I'm one of them!

I'd love to be able to afford the Gaming Ballistic stuff - it looks really great, but I just can't justify it to myself. I've never bought anything from GB, though I'd like to; I've been following Douglas Cole - and his effort to go full-time into writing for GURPS - and I hope he makes it work.

Maybe these costs are just the inescapable economics of gaming books these days; I wouldn't know. But the truth is, I'm a dad, with financial responsibilities. Maybe one way to get more folks on board with GURPS is to find a way to make it a little bit less expensive to get started!

I know all about GURPS Lite and that it's free. It's been free and available for a long time, now, right? So that's clearly not the on-ramp we're looking for.

The cheapest way to get just the pdfs of the new Delvers To Go stuff is to support the Kickstarter at the $35 level. The cheapest way to get only the actual new books in print form is to support the Kickstarter at $70.

I've never paid $70 for a 120-page book. It's a little frustrating.

Again, I've been very reluctant to post this on here, but if the goal is to get new players, I think this has to be recognized as a serious issue.

For comparison:

1980 Basic Set D&D in decent condition on eBay for about $110: https://www.ebay.com/itm/14402459612...QAAOSw6XNgi2rq

Current D&D "Starter Set" on Amazon for $13.59

D&D Hardcover Player's Handbook (320 pages) on Amazon for $29.93.

GURPS isn't D&D. I get it. But at these prices, it never will be.

PS: For what it's worth, I bought, at the age of 13 - and still own - the first edition GURPS box set (the box is long gone), along with a lot of early GURPS products, including the original Fantasy: Magic System and Game World.

Last edited by JulianLW; 05-21-2021 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Yeah... but Doug wants to be able to buy food for himself and his kids. Selling at a loss is not viable for a line as small as DFRPG. You can't really compare this to WotC - they have a line of hundreds of other products and sell 10,000 copies per month.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Yeah... but Doug wants to be able to buy food for himself and his kids. Selling at a loss is not viable for a line as small as DFRPG. You can't really compare this to WotC - they have a line of hundreds of other products and sell 10,000 copies per month.
I know. I get it. I'm just pointing out that, if these things were a little bit cheaper, I'd be able to get on board. I want to.

Where's the point at which you drop the price enough to where you double the number of folks who can buy it and end up actually making a lot more money? Again, I don't know. But this is a price point that stops me.

And I really am hoping that saying so is valuable input for TPTB.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Well, 600 backers is where the stretch goals start. And Doug said on the Discord that if he regularly had 1500 backers his pricing would be different. But we're not there.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
I know. I get it. I'm just pointing out that, if these things were a little bit cheaper, I'd be able to get on board. I want to.

Where's the point at which you drop the price enough to where you double the number of folks who can buy it and end up actually making a lot more money? Again, I don't know. But this is a price point that stops me.

And I really am hoping that saying so is valuable input for TPTB.
It is valuable. Painful, but valuable.

I charged as little as I thought I could for these volumes. If that's more than the market will bear . . . I guess I have some serious thinking to do.

If I had 1,500 or 2,000 supporters instead of 400-600, I could make up the development costs more easily and charge less. But I don't.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: [DtG] New GURPS Players, $150 Each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
I never quite get why there's such a distaste for the dungeon fantasy genre... it's either because
  • They've played it for years (maybe decades!) and lost interest or grew to despise it
  • For the sake of being a contrarian
  • Were never interested in the first place... although this may be the prior reason in disguise
In my case, it's at least partially because it is usually pitched as nostalgia, but my gaming history has pretty much never included dungeon crawling. I started gaming with things like Iron Crown's CyberSpace and WEG's Star Wars, then moved to GURPS and Riddle of Steel.

So the typical play style of dungeon fantasy is not at all appealing to me. Such a style certainly isn't required of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, but is the play style implied from page one.
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