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Old 05-13-2021, 06:03 PM   #41
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
I treat Magery 1 as much an inborn trait as Magery 2 is. If you don't start with Magery 2, you're stuck with what you had at the start of the campaign.
Then you have your definition for that setting. An unchangeable value fixed at character creation (barring extreme magic) is one of the options covered early on upthread. Certainly that occurs often enough in the source literature.

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So, yes. I'm looking for the rationale as to how spending 10 points to raise magery 0 after start of play to magery 1 has an IN GAME explanation for how it occurs.
Why, if you've got the definition that you like? By definition, that can't occur, so there is no such rationale.

Other settings don't have to have that assumption built in. It doesn't make sense to me to demand a rationale to convince you otherwise for your own game, particularly if you've already made up your mind that there cannot be any such acceptable rationale. Play your game the way you want. There's no GURPS police that will come along and force you to stop because you're Doing It Wrong. And if other people are playing under other assumptions, that's okay, too.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:28 PM   #42
Plane
 
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Extra effort to improve one's magic aptitude even temporarily, draws on the same currency as casting a spell - ie, fatigue. If a player proposed an all gain no pain process for improving an inborn trait, I'd smile and say "sure" knowing that they will try and I will say "nice try, but you didn't reach the threshhold for getting new magery levels. Now, if they said instead...

"A crit success achieves what I am trying for, a crit failure results in LOSING a level of magery"

Well, then I'd have no REAL issue with trying to adapt the extra effort.
If you crit-fail the Will roll when using Extra Effort to push extra levels of a power then your ability turns off for at least one second and you need to make a HT roll to see if it gets crippled long for longer based on P156

EE is meant for active abilities though and Magery is possible considered passive, so maybe this'd only work for modified versions which have something like 'requires (attribute) roll' attached to it...

Given that crit-faiilng the HT roll on extra effort means "lasting crippling" so you're months without magery, which is a big risk so if it were allowed many mages might be scared to try it.

For those who did, they'd probably want to minimize that risk by taking a lower penalty, such as if the GM allowed 'godlike extra effort' and pumping in 5 FP to get +100% magery at will-4 instead of 1 FP to get +100% magery at will-20
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:26 PM   #43
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If you crit-fail the Will roll when using Extra Effort to push extra levels of a power then your ability turns off for at least one second and you need to make a HT roll to see if it gets crippled long for longer based on P156

EE is meant for active abilities though and Magery is possible considered passive, so maybe this'd only work for modified versions which have something like 'requires (attribute) roll' attached to it...

Given that crit-faiilng the HT roll on extra effort means "lasting crippling" so you're months without magery, which is a big risk so if it were allowed many mages might be scared to try it.

For those who did, they'd probably want to minimize that risk by taking a lower penalty, such as if the GM allowed 'godlike extra effort' and pumping in 5 FP to get +100% magery at will-4 instead of 1 FP to get +100% magery at will-20
The main thing to keep in mind is that extra effort normally isn't used to improve an attribute - which an upgradable Magery effectively functions as. Training one's mind as in raising IQ in theory, could be simply learning to recall things better, or could be solving puzzles on a regular basis or improving one's overall base education (what ever that means!). If in Modern times, an IQ of 10 is basically the end product of education as we know it today - then medieval times without such structured universal education should be (in GURPS terms) producing lower IQ individuals as the "norm".

Raising Health - again, not sure how one would go about raising one's HT attribute - but since it also includes fatigue as a secondary aspect, is it a process of eating right, exercising right, and having good genetics? If so, it seems decidedly odd that GURPS has Fit and Very Fit in addition to HT. Acquring FIT effectively increases HT due to the +1 save for HT saving rolls.

All of these things do not require extra effort. I'm just trying to find, for me, a good rationale for how one can raise Magery in a "story telling" sense rather than in a metagaming sense where experience points can be used to pay for ANYTHING.

GURPS originally set it up that if your character's attributes were at given levels at start of play, they were the "Character's ADULT" stage. There wasn't much room for extra improvement beyond say, +1 or +2 relative to realistic growth save for perhaps, in Body Building. Even Olympian training athletes have to train day in and day out to reach their peak levels of output and they have to work hard to KEEP that peak edge.

So - while what I latched onto may be inspired by extra effort, it isn't meant to be totally constrainted by it, largely because Extra Effort was never really meant as a game mechanism for improving Magery or other things.
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Old 05-13-2021, 10:11 PM   #44
Plane
 
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
The main thing to keep in mind is that extra effort normally isn't used to improve an attribute - which an upgradable Magery effectively functions as.
In the sense that attributes are usually passive, yeah, the guidelines suggest only allowing it for attributes modified as being active abilities, like +10 IQ (requires IQ roll -10%) [180] for example, you should in theory be able to try for an extra +1 to IQ (10% improvement) using an IQ-2 roll (two 5% increments)

P160 actually does mention (missed it the first time) that GM can permit using EE for passive abilities too, and it even gives the example of using it to boost modular abilities in high-powered games... you can spend modular abilities on attributes right?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Training one's mind as in raising IQ in theory, could be simply learning to recall things better, or could be solving puzzles on a regular basis or improving one's overall base education (what ever that means!). If in Modern times, an IQ of 10 is basically the end product of education as we know it today - then medieval times without such structured universal education should be (in GURPS terms) producing lower IQ individuals as the "norm".
GURPS doesn't mention anything about lower IQ by era, I think that's just be having a lower tech level (can't use high TL skills) which is like a slew of 'incompetent' quirks for certain things, but worse (no default whatsoever)

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Raising Health - again, not sure how one would go about raising one's HT attribute - but since it also includes fatigue as a secondary aspect, is it a process of eating right, exercising right, and having good genetics?
I imagine unless you rewrite DNA that buying up HT is considered making healthy lifestyle changes in some way. The GM probably shouldn't allow it in situations where you're constantly suffering and not getting enough nutrition to recuperate.

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
If so, it seems decidedly odd that GURPS has Fit and Very Fit in addition to HT. Acquring FIT effectively increases HT due to the +1 save for HT saving rolls.
I figure buying HT without Fit is something like non-athletic healthiness, like you're eating clean, able to avoid overexerting yourself, you remain balanced and maybe even energetic, but in a broad sort of way.

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
All of these things do not require extra effort. I'm just trying to find, for me, a good rationale for how one can raise Magery in a "story telling" sense rather than in a metagaming sense where experience points can be used to pay for ANYTHING.
I just figure you'd work up to a higher magery level in degrees, like how you might for example buy the level cheaply level with 1-8 multiples of -10% which you'd later buy off to make it more versatile.

Like Magery 0 [5] who goes and buys Magery +1 (switchable +10% fickle -20% requires will roll -5% max dur 60 seconds -65%) [2] and then later makes their ability able to last longer periods and unfickle by spending points.

But even prior to buying anything, an expensive (FP) unreliable (-1 per +5%!) test run using Extra Effort seems like an interesting precursor to RP why it is you're able to spend on stuff you don't have more freely than most.
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Old 05-13-2021, 10:39 PM   #45
awesomenessofme1
 
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

I use pretty simple standards in my games. Magery 1+ can represent either natural power or extensive, broad training. Magery 0 can only be bought at character creation (without GM approval and a very solid explanation), but if you have it, you can raise it through training or earned points freely.
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Old 05-13-2021, 11:04 PM   #46
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

Magery is an aptitude. If you have it you're adept, not skilled, not trained, not experienced. It is described in the same terms as a Talent, and I don't allow players to develop talents by simply wanting to be talented and spending XP. In a word with magic you can certainly change yourself to have different aptitudes. Get infected with a demonic parasite, or make a pact with a dark entity or simply make a great wish. But you are changing the things about you the govern your aptitude, not putting your nose in a spell book and making the grade, that's how you get higher spell levels or perhaps how you raise your IQ.
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Old 05-14-2021, 12:33 AM   #47
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

What traits a GM allows players to buy after play begins is entirely campaign dependent.

In campaigns where the characters are experienced adult professionals and Magery is inherent and immutable it should be virtually impossible to acquire levels of Magery after play begins.

In campaigns where characters are children or beginners and/or the genre conventions demand that PCs' powers blossom during play it should be possible to buy levels of Magery as "Power Ups."

For example, in Dungeon Fantasy, buying an additional level of Magery is a quick way to represent "leveling up."

In cases where the GM wants to split the difference or demands "niche protection" for the PCs, mage or would-be mage characters should buy (additional) levels of Magery as Potential Advantages before play begins.
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Old 05-14-2021, 01:03 AM   #48
StevenH
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

I think I will weigh in with an expanded example of how Order/Chaos mages improve their magery "levels" in Modesitt's Recluce series. Hal wanted an in-game reason to allow Magery level to increase, so bear with the wall of text where I attempt to explain (badly, most likely) how one writer did it (and if L.E. Modesitt ever read this, he'd probably say I have it all wrong!)



Note that there aren't any "spells" per se; there are effects that you can cause based upon your understanding of Order, Chaos, and the Balance.

Magic in that universe works by manipulating bits of Order and Chaos around. Mages come in (roughly) two flavors: Order (Black), and Chaos (White). There are also Grey mages, who have figured out how to use both. It's actually a bit more complicated than that, as those two categories are largely social constructs, but not completely. Chaos users actually use Order to contain their Chaos, and Order users use their Order to move Chaos around. Chaos is basically the "heat" or life force of living things. Order is what controls that "heat" and is kind of the underlying structure of things; having no Order or no Chaos will kill you. Living things need both to live. There is a Balance: the amount of Order and Chaos remain equal, so when a city starts building up its Chaos mages, some other place on the world ends up with more localized Order than usual. Most people don't realize this, which is why most of the conflict happens in the books.

Recluce mages "see" Order and Chaos energy flows. Their minds interpret it as little motes of energy; the Order motes as having metaphysical "hooks" like velcro that allow you to sort of build structures out of them (usually shields, but it works in many other ways as well, such as "unhooking" the Order structure of an object, causing it to release it's inherent Chaos and explode). They can also detect the Order and Chaos that exists in the environment and in living things. At first, their range is pretty short, but over time they can extend this out pretty far. If this was all it was, then it could be represented as a skill. But it's not, because all of the mage's powers are related. Knowing how to sense things far away is a direct function of how well the mage can also detect smaller bits of Order and Chaos. Which also works to make their shields stronger, because the bits of Order and Chaos are smaller, more intertwined, and more refined.

Or, let's just look at shields. Mages put up shields to deflect the energies of enemy mages. Chaos users throw firebolts. Order mages don't really throw anything, but are better at using shields, and in some cases can form the shields into tubes or scoops that catch enemy firebolts and redirect them. The way they form these shields matters: Chaos users make theirs out of bits of Chaos, Order users make theirs out of bits of Order. The smart ones, however, use both in their shields: Order shields use small bits of Chaos surrounded by Order, Chaos shields the opposite. This makes them much more powerful because they are more balanced.

When a character was first learning how to use her powers, she was told first to see the Chaos she was trying to use. Then she was told to try to form it into a shield by imagining it as a weave, such as a quilt or cloth. Over time, the weave got tighter and tighter, in effect raising the thread count, thus strengthening the shield. Again, this could theoretically be represented by a skill increase.

But, as I mentioned above, it's all related. Her ability to see and manipulate finer and finer meshes of Chaos (and in her case, a bit of Order as well) allowed her to also get better at healing (using a bit of Order to strengthen bodily processes or get rid of wound-chaos), better at sensing life forms at a distance, and even more tightly focus her chaos bolts to keep from getting too fatigued too fast.

So in this case, it can make sense to consider it a Magery increase due to practice, rather than a just a series of skill increases.
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Old 05-14-2021, 01:05 AM   #49
Plane
 
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
Magery is an aptitude. If you have it you're adept, not skilled, not trained, not experienced. It is described in the same terms as a Talent, and I don't allow players to develop talents by simply wanting to be talented and spending XP. In a word with magic you can certainly change yourself to have different aptitudes. Get infected with a demonic parasite, or make a pact with a dark entity or simply make a great wish. But you are changing the things about you the govern your aptitude, not putting your nose in a spell book and making the grade, that's how you get higher spell levels or perhaps how you raise your IQ.
Having TK 1 or TK 2 might be considered aptitudes yet I think in theory a psi can train their advantage up from TK1 to TK2.

Not necessarily purely a book-learning thing, but then neither are a lot of skills like combat where I think it's assumed you're doing some hands-on feeling-out in addition to theory.

That's part of the appeal of EE modelling since the FP spending is like experimenting with volatile magical energies not book theory.
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:05 AM   #50
maximara
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Default Re: Magery as an improvable advantage?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Raising Health - again, not sure how one would go about raising one's HT attribute - but since it also includes fatigue as a secondary aspect, is it a process of eating right, exercising right, and having good genetics? If so, it seems decidedly odd that GURPS has Fit and Very Fit in addition to HT. Acquring FIT effectively increases HT due to the +1 save for HT saving rolls.
But in Classic HT included HP not Fatigue. ST was what determined Fatigue in Classic. This is why the straight conversion of Raphael Holyoak is set up the way it is.
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