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Old 05-11-2021, 11:41 PM   #1
Ragabash Moon
 
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Default Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:09 AM   #2
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

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Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon View Post
So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?
The answer 'it depend' won't help you but I can see it going either way.

Watsonian answer :

Does the regeneration/regrowth work from a template (your DNA ?) or from your "mental picture" of yourself or is it just natural healing boosted ? That would change the outcome.

If the regeneration/regrowth fully take you back to your (theoretical) prime (for example also fixing balding or greying hairs), then I would allow it to regrowth the leg.

If after an injury at 5 pm, the regeneration/regrowth take your body back to what it was at 4:59 pm ... sorry, the leg stay missing.

Doylist answer :

Do you have the point to buy back lame ?

If yes it work.
If not, it doesn't.

Last edited by Celjabba; 05-12-2021 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 03:38 AM   #3
James P
 
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Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

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Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon View Post
Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage.
For me, the main question would be whether he built the character with one leg (ie, he got points for taking Lame) or he lost his leg, along the way (ie, Lame was added, but no points gained).

If he lost his leg, then Regrowth would just remove the Lame Disadvantage, while fixing him up. If he had been built that way, then I believe the Rules would imply the PC needing to pay back the points gained from Lame, before he could regrow.

I don't think I'd charge someone points for regrowing their leg, anyway, if it came much later on. Definitely not, if the regrowth came as a consequence of adventuring. (it never sat right with me, to charge people for lucky occurances, nor to penalize them because they don't have the spare points available to "buy" the thing they found/encountered). If he chose to acquire that new Advantage, however that occurs, I'd require him to buy off the Disadvantage, too.
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
The answer 'it depend' won't help you but I can see it going either way.

Watsonian answer :

Does the regeneration/regrowth work from a template (your DNA ?) or from your "mental picture" of yourself or is it just natural healing boosted ? That would change the outcome.

If the regeneration/regrowth fully take you back to your (theoretical) prime (for example also fixing balding or greying hairs), then I would allow it to regrowth the leg.

If after an injury at 5 pm, the regeneration/regrowth take your body back to what it was at 4:59 pm ... sorry, the leg stay missing.

Doylist answer :

Do you have the point to buy back lame ?

If yes it work.
If not, it doesn't.
This is the correct answer from both perspectives, but hold on I need to know more about the Watsonian/Doylist dichotomy here, where did it come from because I love it

edit: Oh yeah, and if they didn't see a point change from the missing leg (i.e. a gameplay acquired disadvantage) then paying for Regrowth would fulfill the point cost justification of the decision at least.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:24 AM   #5
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

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Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
This is the correct answer from both perspectives, but hold on I need to know more about the Watsonian/Doylist dichotomy here, where did it come from because I love it
It is commonly used in rpg forums but originated in various fiction fandom :

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...nVersusDoylist
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Watsonian_vs._Doylist
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:26 AM   #6
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Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

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Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
This is the correct answer from both perspectives, but hold on I need to know more about the Watsonian/Doylist dichotomy here, where did it come from because I love it
It comes from people who analyze the Sherlock Holmes stories. When trying to determine why something happens in a story, you can either look at it from an "in-universe" perspective where the stories are more-or-less factual narratives by Dr. Watson (hence, Watsonian), or from an "out-of-universe" perspective where the stories are works of fiction by Arthur Conan Doyle (hence, Doylist).

For example, over the course of the stories, Dr. Watson's war wound seems to mysteriously migrate between his arm and his leg. The Doylist explanation is that the author wasn't paying attention to continuity, but a Watsonian explanation could be devised that he took multiple injuries that flare up at different times. Similarly, in Star Trek, the Doylist reason original series Klingons have no forehead ridges is because the costume designers hadn't thought of them yet, but the Watsonian reason is [insert technobabble here]. Creating a good Watsonian explanation for things where the only obvious cause is Doylist is considered great sport in some circles.
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Last edited by ravenfish; 05-12-2021 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 11:34 AM   #7
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon View Post
So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?
At first blush, I would rule that having Regrowth doesn't affect the stump because it is healed, but if the stump were to take enough fresh damage, Regrowth would then kick in to grow the leg back, on the basis that Regrowth is in some way accessing the character's DNA, which presumably is baseline human and the Regrowth effectively says, "Right, there should be a leg here. Rebuilding to specification."

The question then becomes how much damage needs to occur before Regrowth can kick in. I tend to think of attacks causing 0 damage, for example, punches and kicks, as being bruises. Regrowth would fix the blood vessels and any minor scrapes and scratches but not trigger Regrowth. One hit point of damage might trigger Regrowth for small body parts such as a finger joint or a toe, but in general, I'd tend to require enough damage to potentially cripple the limb to trigger Regrowth. I might reduce the required damage depending on the description of the damage. You'd still be Lame (One Leg) whether you lost your leg at the hip, the knee, (or just your foot at the ankle?), but it should be somewhat easier to trigger Regrowth if you're only missing a foot rather than the whole leg.

There's also the question of just how fast the regeneration is. You may not even need to worry about Bleeding at three seconds, it is manageable at three minutes, and a problem that needs to be given consideration at thirty-six hours (three half-days). [Yes, I'm assuming three points of initial damage.]

Depending on the rate of Regeneration and how the character plans to cope with Bleeding, I'd allow him to attempt to create a fresh wound to trigger Regrowth, though I might also require a Will roll if he is making the wound himself, rather than getting a friend, or friends, to do it for him.
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Old 05-12-2021, 11:53 AM   #8
Plane
 
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Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon View Post
Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained
Regrowth never says anything about requiring an open wound to work, but if it did then putting a token wound on the stump wouldn't be that huge an impediment. You could add Trigger: Injury for -15% and just do a 1 HP pinprick to get a minute's worth of regrowthing.

If the question is "do I need regrowth at the time of severing to regrow, or can I get it later and retroactively un-permanent a permanent wound?" then I think GURPS Powers has a precedent for that.

P51:
Those who can only heal themselves have Regeneration (p. 70) or
Regrowth (p. 71). An Affliction (p. 39) with the Advantage enhancement can grant these traits to others, however, and serve the same purpose as Healing.
P71
Itís possible to use Affliction (p. 39) with the Advantage enhancement to give someone else Regrowth Ė but this is too slow to be useful unless the subject also gains (or already has) Regeneration.
P128:
Healing doesnít permit attacks as such, but does allow Afflictions that are useful to healers (GMís decision). Suitable enhancements are any form of Advantage that bestows Regeneration, Regrowth, or another healing related trait;
The implication seeming to be that if an allie's lost a limb, you can use Affliction: Regrowth to temporarily give them the ability the regrow the limb.

Of course, with the months-long regeneration cycle you'd need a very long duration affliction or else need to be constantly topping up the affliction's duration, unless you accompanied it with Regeneration which can speed up Regrowth.

You could get instant results probably cheaper by using the "Negated Disadvantage" enhancement, but that would mean whatever limb you temporarily gave them would go away once the Affliction ends.

If it's possible for Affliction: Regrowth to regrow previously-lost limbs then I don't see why you couldn't do the same if you later acquire the Regrowth advantage.
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Old 05-14-2021, 10:50 PM   #9
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

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Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon View Post
Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage
I'd allow it as long as there wasn't a good reason why the missing limb is permanently gone (e.g., due campaign genre conventions, a cursed weapon, an attack with the Cosmic enhancement, damage from a Vulnerability, or the deliberate act of a powerful supernatural entity).

If you want to be evil, the stump could regenerate imperfectly resulting in Lame (Crippled Leg) or an an Unnatural Feature. It could also constantly try to regenerate resulting in a permanently open sore which gives the Wounded disadvantage and/or Chronic Pain.
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Old 05-15-2021, 09:43 AM   #10
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon View Post
So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?
Assuming they have the points to buy off the lame disadvantage I would OF COURSE let them buy it off if they wanted to. And if it's metaphysically awkward in world for whatever reason I'd make up something that makes sense. If a player wants to buy off their lame disad and is willing to invest a lot of points in extra advantages in order to justify doing that then like... it's hard for me to imagine a motivation for saying No.

If it's just a metaphysics question of whether the Regrowth advantage can reqrow limbs lost prior to it's acquisition then there isn't a GURPS answer. The answer is going to be based on in world physics/metaphysics of the ability and is up to the GM to decide.
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