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Old 03-11-2021, 01:04 PM   #11
ravenfish
 
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Sensible! But the book is written in the context of larger-than-life fantasy exploits based on a specific ruleset, in this case the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.
Do you have a list of differences between the rules for GURPS and the DFRPG in regards to grappling somewhere? They're very similar, but it's when things are very similar that I start overlooking differences, because I assumed I knew how things work.
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:41 PM   #12
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Do you have a list of differences between the rules for GURPS and the DFRPG in regards to grappling somewhere? They're very similar, but it's when things are very similar that I start overlooking differences, because I assumed I knew how things work.
I don't. I don't have a license to write for regular GURPS, just Powered by GURPS, so I haven't really focused on anything mainstream GURPS since 2012 or so.

It'd be an interesting examination, but not one I have time for at the moment!
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

I think I missed the fact that you don't have to spend CP for strangling unlike "Injure the Foe". That does make strangling significantly better, and the ability to do so without getting hold of the neck (-5 to target) is actually worth something.

Probably enemies with carapace or solid armor would reduce this damage though, so it compares unfavorably to the neck for armored opponents.

Anyway, how does grappling with the torso work with stuff like "Number of Limbs"? If a snake-person grapples with both arms and tail, is that 3 limbs? If I wanted a snake tail to count for more would I buy that as some sort of limited version of Extra Arm?

How about leg grapples? Let's say we have a giant spider that wants to pin an opponent. It has 8 legs and a mouth, but no fine manipulators/arms.
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Old 03-12-2021, 06:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

Btw. when using the optional "Knowing Your Own Strength", what thresholds would you suggest for Lifting ST when using Grab and Go etc.? KYOS-Lifting ST scales up dramatically faster, so a straight multiple seems overkill. Each 10x ST multiplies Lift by 10 after all...

+3 ST is already 100% increase in lifting ST.

I guess the easy, if a bit 'game-y', solution is to just double the relative levels of ST for everything (since KYOS Lifting ST costs 7/level under KYOS instead of 3/level).

Though if so I still feel like something like Grab & Go would be better based on basic lift. Maybe instead of doing percentages we could just say +3 ST (rounded to +4 if doubling relative levels...) lets you make a full move. -2 ST means you can only take a step.
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Old 03-12-2021, 09:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Probably enemies with carapace or solid armor would reduce this damage though, so it compares unfavorably to the neck for armored opponents.
I wouldn't treat this any different than injuring the foe - so DR would only protect if you were Homogeneous. Don't see the need for any extra complexity or detail here.

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Anyway, how does grappling with the torso work with stuff like "Number of Limbs"? If a snake-person grapples with both arms and tail, is that 3 limbs? If I wanted a snake tail to count for more would I buy that as some sort of limited version of Extra Arm?
I could see treating a Constriction Attack as two limbs even. Especially if you're coming from the GURPS angle where Constriction Attack loses some of its worth because anyone can spend CP for damage and Constriction Attack only lets you strangle without grabbing the neck.

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How about leg grapples? Let's say we have a giant spider that wants to pin an opponent. It has 8 legs and a mouth, but no fine manipulators/arms.
Animals that grapple get afforded a two-handed grapple despite not having arms. So honestly unless a limb were designed for grappling I wouldn't afford any bonus from it. And spider legs don't sound that way.

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Btw. when using the optional "Knowing Your Own Strength", what thresholds would you suggest for Lifting ST when using Grab and Go etc.? KYOS-Lifting ST scales up dramatically faster, so a straight multiple seems overkill. Each 10x ST multiplies Lift by 10 after all...

+3 ST is already 100% increase in lifting ST.

I guess the easy, if a bit 'game-y', solution is to just double the relative levels of ST for everything (since KYOS Lifting ST costs 7/level under KYOS instead of 3/level).

Though if so I still feel like something like Grab & Go would be better based on basic lift. Maybe instead of doing percentages we could just say +3 ST (rounded to +4 if doubling relative levels...) lets you make a full move. -2 ST means you can only take a step.
I think I'd really lean into KYOS' "twice as strong" comparisons, so a grab and go would let you move for your full move if your ST were by 3 or more greater, half move for 0-2, and a step if your victim had up to 3 more ST than you.
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Old 03-12-2021, 07:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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If one hearkens back to the Basic Set, Constriction Attack is just "you can roll a QC and damage your opponent each turn after a grapple."

The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK."
I figured part of why you gave that double-CP benefit to Constriction Attack was that Martial Arts kinda gave partial Constriction Attack privileges to muggles on MA117 under Bear Hugs. Instead of "strangles vs torsos, period" it's just "your torso strangles that anyone can try now work against your own SM instead of just lesser SM... and there's no -5 penalty like doing a one-handed strangle even when you're required to use two arms or two legs.

but I guess MA116 offset that by giving it some new boosts like unpenalized hands-free grappling techniques using torso, which Basic Set didn't exactly say... though MA did also require Double-Jointed for that, which boosts DJ and CA both in a way.
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Old 03-15-2021, 01:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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I could see treating a Constriction Attack as two limbs even. Especially if you're coming from the GURPS angle where Constriction Attack loses some of its worth because anyone can spend CP for damage and Constriction Attack only lets you strangle without grabbing the neck.
Makes sense. I'll probably run for that for Nagas/Lamia.

I'm tempted to do something similar for an arachne/drider-like character, letting them buy a technique to use legs for grappling/assisting with grappling. Perhaps a Technique defaulting to <unarmed skill>-3 or something.

Technical Grappling had rules for leg-grappling, but Fantastic Dungeon Grappling is lacking something like that. I'd really like to see a bit of a comfortable in-between of the over-complicated Technical Grappling, and the rather bare-bones Dungeon Grappling.

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I think I'd really lean into KYOS' "twice as strong" comparisons, so a grab and go would let you move for your full move if your ST were by 3 or more greater, half move for 0-2, and a step if your victim had up to 3 more ST than you.
The question is what to do about using Lifting ST for normal contests. Since Lifting ST is now highly exponential it gets... weird.

I'm currently trying to decide between using Striking-ST for grappling instead (I already price it at 2/points level instead of 1/point level), or counting Lifting ST as `Lifting-ST*2 - 10`.

Both have pros and cons. Striking ST is simple, and makes the scaling less weird. It also makes it easier to make a KYOS Lifting-ST 25 creature wrestle believably by simply giving it a lot more Striking-ST than Lifting-ST. Could probably do Striking-ST (Wrestling only, -30%) or something too.

Lifting-ST keeps the idea of wrestling being more based around your "slow" strength though, while using Striking-ST essentially creatings 'Lifting-ST', 'Striking-ST', and 'Wrestling-ST' :\

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I figured part of why you gave that double-CP benefit to Constriction Attack was that Martial Arts kinda gave partial Constriction Attack privileges to muggles on MA117 under Bear Hugs. Instead of "strangles vs torsos, period" it's just "your torso strangles that anyone can try now work against your own SM instead of just lesser SM... and there's no -5 penalty like doing a one-handed strangle even when you're required to use two arms or two legs.
I'm not a wrestler/grapple myself, but isn't a choke-hold supposed to be rather difficult to do unless you're behind the person too, most techniques I've seen involve locking your arms around their neck from the back.

I don't mind Cinematic Martial artists (or Infinite's vampire who has super-strength) one-hand choking out someone, but they should probably pay for some sort of technique. Or at least require something like the Trained by Master advantage.

As it is there isn't really a reason to pick up stuff like the Constriction Attack. I mean, compared to just getting 4 levels of Wrestling it is a really really weak pick.
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Old 03-15-2021, 01:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

My instinct on the "what to do with Constriction Attack" question is to have it allow you to grapple with your body as well as a normal person could with two hands (albeit possibly with only a limited subset of targets and techniques), so a snake with it can wrap and strangle while having No Fine Manipulators, and a lamia with it can wrap and strangle while either keeping arms free for other work or grappling with them as well for the "extra arms" bonus.
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Old 03-15-2021, 04:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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My instinct on the "what to do with Constriction Attack" question is to have it allow you to grapple with your body as well as a normal person could with two hands (albeit possibly with only a limited subset of targets and techniques), so a snake with it can wrap and strangle while having No Fine Manipulators, and a lamia with it can wrap and strangle while either keeping arms free for other work or grappling with them as well for the "extra arms" bonus.
Letting someone with double-jointed grapple with their torso is actually a special trick if you have constriction attack. Some races would have it without a snake-like body, so it probably shouldn't be meaningful only to snakes.
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Old 03-15-2021, 05:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Letting someone with double-jointed grapple with their torso is actually a special trick if you have constriction attack. Some races would have it without a snake-like body, so it probably shouldn't be meaningful only to snakes.
Given that there's Cotton Stomach perk introduced in MA it's kinda confusing why they sorta packaged a free version of it for those who had both Constriction Attack and Double-Jointed.

TG27 at least gave some helpful text regarding what Constriction's meant to represent: "a core physiology and musculature optimized for exerting strength laterally"

There's also that new discount on it for those who have Extra Flexible on two arms. No mention of Legs, I guess because B55 doesn't include an EF option for Extra Legs...

There's no mention of Double-Jointed here either, even though DJ seems to be on par with Flexible in terms of arm benefits in the only "crunch" I'm aware of for EF: B390's side-parrying and B391's back-blocking.

I think even with TG's new perk there's a big question why you'd ever take Extra-Flexible as a 2-armed being, if you think about it...

1) it costs 5 per arm: that's 10 points for 2, may as well go the full 15 for DJ and avoid -5 in close quarters, get a +5 talent for Break Free attacks, climbing, escape and seduction

I guess you could consider the effective total cost to be only 5 points subtracting the 5 you save on Constriction Attack.

It seems a bit complicated though. Like would I still save the full 5 points on Constriction Attack if I took Extra Arms with limitations?

Consider:

Flexible Arms (Immediate Preparation Required: 1 minute -30% Maximum Duration: 10 minutes -50%) [2]

By spending 2 points to save 5, I'm basically getting 3 free points, lowering the cost of Constriction Attack to merely 7 points instead of 10.

I think the only way to prevent that kind of abuse would be to require Constriction Attack to take whatever limitations you took on Flexible Arms, that way you're not getting full benefit of the discount by paying fewer points to get the discount.

Plus the -5 should probably come off the base cost of 10 rather than any modified costs, so that Constriction Attack doesn't become free if you have -50% in limitations.
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