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Old 10-01-2020, 05:33 AM   #11
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

And, since Heroic Archer ignores Bulk penalties, it means that they can 'run and gun' (so to speak), at no penalty.
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Old 10-01-2020, 07:13 AM   #12
MakDemonik
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
2) I disallow Double Shot for Scouts. Dual-Weapon Attack normally comes with some balancing drawbacks: you need two weapons, you can't combine it with Rapid Strike, you need Off-Hand Weapon Training. Double Shot is basically just Extra Attack for a fraction of the points. I see no point in allowing this huge discount. I told my players they are welcome to describe Extra Attack as a "double shot" if they want to feel like Legolas.

Even without Double Shot, some players have complained that a Scout with Extra Attacks is too effective in combat, since it's so easy to do Move and Attacks and play mobile machine gun turret, staying out of harms way while delivering those devastating vitals/eye shots.
Yeah that was my thought exactly. And I haven't even considered the Run and Gun Tactics. But I guess I had a feeling that there has to be some reason why they included some of the more niche Power-Ups like Every One's a Critical from the Swashbuckler Denizens Splat. But totally removed Slayer techniques and Double Arrow shot. Which seemed like such a basic upgrade for every archer.

Although now we seem to have opinions from both sides of the spectrum. From "Sure its High fantasy after all, let them do what they want" to "Oh deer God no, they will be unstoppable!" (might be slight hyperbole)

I also noticed that Exploits does mention Dual-Weapon Attack as an option. And classes like Swashbucklers and Thieves even are implied to be sometimes fight this way (2 Knifes, Rapier and Main Gauche) but they removed the ability to buy off the penalty with a technique.
(Didn't see it in Core set nor Companion 1 and 2)
So I guess they give you the option but you are stuck with -4 on both attacks (Or -8 on the offhand if you don't have Ambidexterity) which is enough to dissuade many players from using it as many players have the mindset of "Maximum bonuses, penalties are always sub-optimal"
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:11 AM   #13
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

It is simple enough to have DWA (Arrow) for 5 CP, Weapon Master (Composite Bow) for 20 CP, and Heroic Archer for 20 CP. At that point, give them DX 14, Combat Reflexes, Strongbow, Bow-24, Fast-Draw (Arrow)-16, TA (Bow/Eye)-19, for a grand total of 189 CP, and you have a character that can reliably fire two arrows per turn at two different targets' eyes while running around. Of course, they will run out of arrows quickly, but it is impressive while they are doing it, and they can blind quite a few targets that way.
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:28 AM   #14
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

And that is why wizards made cornucopia quivers
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:31 AM   #15
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
It is simple enough to have DWA (Arrow) for 5 CP, Weapon Master (Composite Bow) for 20 CP, and Heroic Archer for 20 CP. At that point, give them DX 14, Combat Reflexes, Strongbow, Bow-24, Fast-Draw (Arrow)-16, TA (Bow/Eye)-19, for a grand total of 189 CP, and you have a character that can reliably fire two arrows per turn at two different targets' eyes while running around. Of course, they will run out of arrows quickly, but it is impressive while they are doing it, and they can blind quite a few targets that way.
The idea of Targeted Attack for a ranged weapon makes my head hurt. What technique could you possibly learn that makes it easier to target someone's eye with an arrow than target anything else? Do competitive archers all max out Targeted Attack (Bow/Bullseye)?
With a melee attack, you plausibly are doing a different "move" when you target the eye vs. the leg or something; with a ranged attack, I just don't see it (and it also feels a bit unbalanced...).
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:54 AM   #16
Imbicatus
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Hmm, I forgot that the move and attack cap applying to ranged was a house rule. Itís really no easier to move and shoot a bow than move and swing a sword.
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Old 10-01-2020, 09:06 AM   #17
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
The idea of Targeted Attack for a ranged weapon makes my head hurt. What technique could you possibly learn that makes it easier to target someone's eye with an arrow than target anything else? .
<shrug> Practice.

With Guns people definitely do proactice to hit Vitals or Head and it makes sense to me that what is most familiar to a user is what works best in stressful conditions.
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:38 AM   #18
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug> Practice.

With Guns people definitely do proactice to hit Vitals or Head and it makes sense to me that what is most familiar to a user is what works best in stressful conditions.
Ok, that sounds more like target acquisition to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.
I was imagining someone at a shooting range who can't hit anything until someone draws a picture of a heart over the target, and suddenly their TA kicks in and they're a better shot. In my mind, "practice" should make you a better shot in general, not better at hitting certain kinds of targets.
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:39 AM   #19
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

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Originally Posted by Imbicatus View Post
Hmm, I forgot that the move and attack cap applying to ranged was a house rule. Itís really no easier to move and shoot a bow than move and swing a sword.
Yeah, in some ways it seems even harder! That's a good house rule, I might have to adopt that. Then again it greatly reduces the utility of Heroic Archer, so maybe I would have to discount that or something.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:06 AM   #20
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

DWA makes more sense to me with pistols (1 per hand) than with bow+arrow.

Given that there's a prep phase for bow+arrow involving quick draws you need to go through each time.

Except for that "I'm holding two arrows and firing them with a single pull of the bowstring" approach which is weird because you'd think that would divide the force of the elasticity between both arrows having them do less damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Skill cap of 9 is for melee weapons. Ranged weapons is a penalty equal to Bulk (so -6 to -8 for bows) but no cap.
I remembered the bulk instead of -4 but glad you guys are pointing out the lack of cap because I never noticed that.

I guess that means even in close range you might be better off throwing the knife at someone 1 yard away rather than stabbing them with it.
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