Afflictions with Follow-Up and Multiple Carriers

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

What about buy Spines and a Striker and Link them and put Followup on the Spines?

Link allows you to activate 2 abilities as though it was one ability. I don't see how that would make sense since there is no way to use spines and a striker at the same time.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by naloth

Link allows you to activate 2 abilities as though it was one ability. I don't see how that would make sense since there is no way to use spines and a striker at the same time.

Hm. What is your rationale for that?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Hm. What is your rationale for that?

I'm not sure what you mean? It's like trying to link Flight and Aquatic. They function independently and you aren't using them at the same time.

Furthermore, normally on attack powers you must match the stats for it to be a valid link. There's no way to modify spines such that it has the same attack statistics as a striker.

EDIT: The premise behind link is that you're using two abilities together. Here you're trying to use link for two different actions that you want to share a bonus effect. It would be an AA if you want one at a time use.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by naloth

I'm not sure what you mean? It's like trying to link Flight and Aquatic. They function independently and you aren't using them at the same time.

Furthermore, normally on attack powers you must match the stats for it to be a valid link. There's no way to modify spines such that it has the same attack statistics as a striker.

EDIT: The premise behind link is that you're using two abilities together. Here you're trying to use link for two different actions that you want to share a bonus effect. It would be an AA if you want one at a time use.

It seems like you object to the very purpose of Link. With the 20% version of Link you can use two Advantages together as if they are one, or use them independently. The text for Link in Basic Set doesn't, to me at least, suggest the sorts of limitations you imply.

[Aldric]

I also don't see the point of linking Spines to a Striker.

Why not just build the ability as an Aura? Dealing piercing damage when attacked and piercing damage when striking someone.
I'm sure we could find a way to make it so the Aura is not always active, or not always active on the whole body.

Not sure if Aura can have a Follow-Up (afb, can't check all the details) but it makes sense.

You then add a crushing striker (the tail) and you're set.

Edit: Managed to check, follow up can work with a carrier with Aura (and the mandatory Melee)

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

It seems like you object to the very purpose of Link.

Can you find any rules support for linking abilities that cannot, ever, be used together? What would Link do in that case, since it normally is a way to activate multiple powers together?

With the 20% version of Link you can use two Advantages together as if they are one, or use them independently.

Yes, activate together or activate separately. Activation doesn't have any bearing on whether or not anything happens after you attack.

The text for Link in Basic Set doesn't, to me at least, suggest the sorts of limitations you imply.

It's not a "limitation." It's the only described use. The text doesn't imply that Link would do anything to help out the situation we're discussing here.

[Anaraxes]

Remember that Spines can't be used to attack. They're a defensive counterattack when struck. So, they neither need nor benefit from activation.

One rationale for the Striker would be that it represents the offensive use of the spines (not Spines), rather than being an extra, separate, limb of some sort. That attack would require activation, but then there's nothing you need to Link it to. The defensive Spines are always on.

Follow-ups are always "linked" because you picked the carrier attack when you designed the ability, and don't require separate activation (and can't be used independently, for that matter), so they don't need Link. It's part of the definition of a Follow-up.

Or as a couple of others have suggested, you could build it as an Innate Attack with Aura, to get both the defensive counterstrike and ability to deal damage in melee range if you expand the radius. You might even get complicated with that one and have the expanded 1-hex radius requiring activation, while only the 0-radius counterattack is always on, to match the Spines case more closely. (Aura also has an AoE effect, which doesn't match the Striker well, but there we are.)

The original question was just adding a Follow-up to the Spines counterstrike, and whether that poison needed to be a separate ability from the poison Follow-up to the Striker, or whether you could just re-use a single Follow-up on both attack rolls. The main advantage to the Aura build is that there's only one ability there, so the question doesn't come up.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by naloth

Can you find any rules support for linking abilities that cannot, ever, be used together?

Page B106:

Link
+10% or +20%
You can use two or more advantages
simultaneously, as if they were a
single ability. For +10%, your abilities
are permanently linked into a single
power, and must be used together –
you cannot use them separately. For
+20%, you can also use them separately.

Using them together is the whole purpose of Linking advantages. Can you cite any rule that supports your position that some Advantages can't be Linked?

What would Link do in that case, since it normally is a way to activate multiple powers together?

It would allow Spines' effect to occur when the character uses her Striker.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Using them together is the whole purpose of Linking advantages. Can you cite any rule that supports your position that some Advantages can't be Linked?

In the beginning of the modifiers chapter it says that not all modifiers are applicable to all situations. Link takes powers you could activate individually and allows you to activate them together as one action. Spines doesn't take an action and can't be used actively. It would be like linking Flight (move action) to Innate Attack (attack action). It doesn't make sense or accomplish anything.

Besides, you seem to be missing the problem: link or no link, these abilities cannot ever be used "together". They will not function at the same time, ever, so "link" doesn't do anything. You're still left with two abilities that work at different times to do different things.

It would allow Spines' effect to occur when the character uses her Striker.

Spines only have a passive effect. They cannot be used to strike or with any attack power.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by naloth

Spines only have a passive effect. They cannot be used to strike or with any attack power.

That's why you Link them to an Advantage that can be used actively. For example, it's like your Striker tail also has Spines on it.