Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-13-2018, 09:21 AM   #11
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Reasonably so? Rev offered alternatives while the thread discusses other beneficial afflictions.

A better example would be shape shifting, ala the "I turn you into a toad" affliction. As a GM I would not require you to spend 10 seconds concentrating on the target (or force the target to take specific maneuvers) while the affliction kicks in. Instead, it would be cast and what follows happens non-interactively. What is going to happen should be (where there are options like a destination of warp) specified upon first use.

Where you are gifting a power, you can specify "I am giving this advantage to the user as if they had it for the duration" as an effect.
naloth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 10:10 AM   #12
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
A better example would be shape shifting, ala the "I turn you into a toad" affliction. As a GM I would not require you to spend 10 seconds concentrating on the target (or force the target to take specific maneuvers) while the affliction kicks in.
I would. The general precedent is that if an afflicted advantage is under the afflictor's control, they have to pay any costs of the advantage, which to my mind certainly includes the time needed for shapeshifting. If you want to be able to transform someone instantly, rather than taking 10 seconds, you should pay for Reduced Time on the Alternate Form. Doing otherwise opens it up to abuses, like using Afflicted Alternate Form to transform your allies faster and cheaper than if they bought the Alternate Form themselves.
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 10:16 AM   #13
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

I don't let someone use Afflict: Flight as Telekinesis. I'm a harsh enforcer of the ABC rule from Powers, because my fragile sanity dictates I draw the line somewhere.
A = Accurate
It is accurate to use Telekinesis to pick someone up and wave them around.

B = Basic
It is basic to use Telekinesis, rather than Afflliction and its mess of modifiers and the hairball of questions about control, and jankyness of durations. Telekinesis already exists, in the core rulebook no less.

C = Cheap
Affliction: Flight can be cheaper for man sized targets.

However, Accurate is the highest priority test, and Basic is second-highest, and Afflict: Flight as a ghetto telekinesis fails the Accuracy and Basicness tests, so the fact that it passes the Cheap test is irrelevant.

Some advantages are "steady state" when turned on, but advantages like Flight enable you to do a new thing while it's active (ie not disabled by a limitation, antipower, whatever). For those powers, I strictly require Affliction to be interpreted as "blessing" the subject with the advantage - they may not be able to "turn it off", but they can control the abilities it gives them.

Steady state advantages (Damage Resistance without Absorbtion for example) are under nobodys control once afflicted. They're just on. These advantages "do something" to the target.

For adjustable advantages that don't enable you to do new things while you are using it, I allow you to set the parameters when you Afflict it, but after that you have no interaction with it. If you have Afflict: Growth 6 (along with the requisite ST with the Growth limitation), I don't mind you choosing whether you want to apply Growth 1 or Growth 5 at the time of affliction - but you don't get to keep monkeying with their size afterwards. If you do want to, recast it.

Afflict is One-And-Done. Warp epitomizes and demonstrates the one-and-done nature of Afflict: there is no useful duration on Warp, but if you have control over the Warp, you only get to teleport the person once. You don't get to keep teleporting them around willy-nilly for the entire duration of your Affliction.

It may be a special (and somewhat extreme) case - but because you can't keep warping people around, I'm absolutely fine with layering on Fixed Duration and a bunch of Reduced Duration to take the duration of Afflict down to 1s (although I won't let you concentrate to reduce the Warp penalty any longer than the duration). I know this isn't done on the official examples of Exoteleport, but this isn't even intruding into Houserules as in new-rules territory, more Houserules as in "there's a billion ways to do it in GURPS, I like this one".

Of course if you're just "Blessing" them with the ability to Warp under their own control, reducing the duration of Afflict is probably not useful to you.

Because Afflict is One-And-Done, I require Afflict: Alternate Form to always have enough Reduced Time on that Alternate Form to bring it down to 1 second. [1] Same thing with Shapeshifting, which is also an adjustable advantage and follows my ruling on those - you can pick whatever shape you want them to be in when you Afflict Shapeshifting, but you can't change it afterwards without reapplying the Affliction. However, the duration of the Affliction is the duration they're transformed, so buying it down to 1 second is probably not useful.

Alternate Form/Shapeshifting is a bit of a wacky advantage in that it's sort of ambiguously an active power and a passive power and bleh. Because of that, I'm never surprised that it requires clarifications or special rulings.

I consider all of the above to be somewhat obvious interpretations, but of course YMMV.

[1] In actuality in my games I've increased the base cost of Alternate Form and Shapeshifting and reduced the change time to 1 second. Without my house rule, requiring the enhancement is what I'd do and is equivalent.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 11:31 AM   #14
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I would. The general precedent is that if an afflicted advantage is under the afflictor's control, they have to pay any costs of the advantage, which to my mind certainly includes the time needed for shapeshifting. If you want to be able to transform someone instantly, rather than taking 10 seconds, you should pay for Reduced Time on the Alternate Form. Doing otherwise opens it up to abuses, like using Afflicted Alternate Form to transform your allies faster and cheaper than if they bought the Alternate Form themselves.
First off, the goal wasn't to decrease the transformation time to 1 second. Under your solution a different modifier would be needed to avoid concentrating on an ability while it kicked in as normal. Shape shifting could use "Active Change" (+25% IIRC), but I suspect the price difference wouldn't be that large (compared to +100% worth of Decreased Time Rate).

Comments and RAW suggestion that Afflictions can't be ended prematurely. They last until for the entire duration unless you add an enhancement. That's usually worth 20%?. Once you add back the ability to end it prematurely, the price difference is pretty insignificant leaving you with the "roll for maximum duration)" rather than gifting it for an unlimited duration. I would call the difference in utility to be something of a wash, especially under combat situations (which time considerations could make either solution would be another difference).

It doesn't really flow like an attack power if you create a "link" after the initial use like an attack power. It makes much more sense if the user already's part as done during the attack.

Let's try another change: a Shrinking affliction that shrinks you 3 levels. Does it make sense that you can consider keeping them from growing and shrinking during the duration as many times as you want? Or does it make sense that you cast it once and you are that size for the entire duration? I would suggest the latter is what players envision you're getting when you buy it rather than trying to figure out how to do that former with a combination of modifiers.
naloth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 11:34 AM   #15
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Comments and RAW suggestion that Afflictions can't be ended prematurely. They last until for the entire duration unless you add an enhancement. That's usually worth 20%?.
No, Cancellable is IIRC 10%. Possibly 5%.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 11:52 AM   #16
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I don't let someone use Afflict: Flight as Telekinesis.
Telekinesis can do a lot of things that Afflict: Flight can't do, such as punch people or strangle them. When you are comparing prices, are you fully limiting Telekinesis so that moving things is the only thing it can do?

Telekinesis also doesn't have a resistance roll, which is notable, and it can't be negated by using a Power Parry to to knock out 1 level of Affliction with 1 level of Innate Attack.

One way to deal with concern is you could treat Flight, if you are using it, to assume your own weight and ST and Move, causing problems with encumbrance if you used it against heavier opponents. Even if they were stronger, flight would be reduced per YOUR strength, unless a beneficial affliction.

Resolving combat would be unusual though. You can force them to do Move maneuvers but can't exactly force them to do Move and Attack, so I can't see any way of actually causing damage using Affliction: Flight, only passive relocation. It doesn't allow "throwing" like TK would, so the only viable tactic would be flying people up high and dropping them.

I could be wrong but isn't the implication with Affliction: Warp that that once you Warp them, it is over and you need to hit them again to Warp a 2nd time? In that case, perhaps treat Affliction: Flight same way and each hit only allows you 1 Move maneuver and then you must reset it to keep them flying?

Last edited by Plane; 11-13-2018 at 11:56 AM.
Plane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 12:11 PM   #17
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I can't see any way of actually causing damage using Affliction: Flight, only passive relocation. It doesn't allow "throwing" like TK would, so the only viable tactic would be flying people up high and dropping them.
A classic going at least as far back as AD&D's Levitation spell. Just fly straight up for the entire duration and let it expire so that the victim plummets to their death.

But if you're in a hurry, and you control your enemy's Movement in flight, you can just powerdive into the ground or a wall -- repeatedly. Move 10 with a 10 HP human would be 1d per turn. (Maybe throw a few levels of Enhanced Move (Air) into your Flight Affliction.) Better yet, slam a different enemy to hurt them both.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 12:53 PM   #18
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
No, Cancellable is IIRC 10%. Possibly 5%.
It's a bargain at 10%, and I thought I saw that it was considered a variant of Selective Effect elsewhere. Consider this: if it is a free action, why ever purchase Selective Effect? You can cast it on an entire area and just freely cancel the effect on the targets you don't want affected. Even if it requires an activation to cancel, it's still giving you the utility to cast over an area then decide you want to release targets later very selectively. After all, unlike Innate Attack, once you cancel most afflictions there is no lasting damage.

As for other utility let's go back to shrinking: what's worth more? You can afflict shrinking. By default do you play it that for the duration:

Option A, you retain the ability to turn it off an on (activation, a ready maneuver) for everyone you cast it on, effectively being able to turn it off during the duration as well as potentially turning it back on later during the duration.

Option B, the target shrinks when the affliction is used and the target remains that way until the duration expires.

The default in the book seems that you use it on someone rather than gift them an advantage that you can turn on and off. For Warp, that's one 'port, no duration. For shrinking, you get that advantage fully activated for the duration.

Rev did bless giving the ability as an advantage, fully under the user's ability, but that's still different. http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...82&postcount=7
naloth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 02:23 PM   #19
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Under your solution a different modifier would be needed to avoid concentrating on an ability while it kicked in as normal. Shape shifting could use "Active Change" (+25% IIRC), but I suspect the price difference wouldn't be that large (compared to +100% worth of Decreased Time Rate).
I would insist on Active Change on the Alternate Form if the afflictor doesn't have to spend the time normally required by Alternate Form, yes. That would produce an affliction that would still take 10 seconds to take effect, during which the afflictor could do other things, but so could the target, since the new template wouldn't take effect until the 10 seconds were up.

And the cost difference is actually non-trivial - an Affliction with Alternate Form (Active Change, +20%) costs 28 points, while the Affliction with Alternate Form (Reduced Time 5, +100%) costs 40. And that difference only multiplies if you want to buy more levels of Affliction to make it harder to resist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Comments and RAW suggestion that Afflictions can't be ended prematurely. They last until for the entire duration unless you add an enhancement. That's usually worth 20%?.
Psionic Powers lists Cancellation for Affliction at +10%, but that requires a touch or a roll with current range modifiers to the subject. Being able to do so at will without a roll at any distance would presumably be a bit more expensive.
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 03:30 PM   #20
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Confused by the FAQ on Afflictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I would insist on Active Change on the Alternate Form if the afflictor doesn't have to spend the time normally required by Alternate Form, yes. That would produce an affliction that would still take 10 seconds to take effect, during which the afflictor could do other things, but so could the target, since the new template wouldn't take effect until the 10 seconds were up.
Obviously there is a total miscommunication.

You implied that when you Afflict an advantage, you gain the ability to use it on the target, turning it on or off, for the duration of the affliction if you possessed the advantage. That would imply that rather than using Exo-Teleport to send someone once, that you could Exo-Port them for the duration instead. That's not how it works for Exo-Port, so it shouldn't follow that way for other Afflictions.

As a guideline it should fit into one of these categories:
- You afflict someone with an effect that lasts over time. You buy it with how it works, and when cast, that's what the target gets for the duration. No more, no less, no turning off and on, no modifying the effect after you use Affliction. You afflict shrink them, they shrink for the duration. You afflict shape-shift them, they shift for the duration (onset still being 10 seconds by default). You don't get to switch it on and off selectively, and being able to end it early in any way is an enhancement or advantage.

- You get one use forced one use of an "active" ability on your target, choosing how it is used. Exo-Teleport, for example, lets you port someone to a place of your choosing once (not multiple times over a duration). Note that Flight grants the ability to move in a new way, but doesn't have anything to do with where you navigate so you can't mind control someone this way into flying into a building. Likewise, Extra Attack, Altered Time Rate, and Compartmentalized Mind shouldn't give you the ability to control the target either. That's Mind Control instead. A villain with the ability to afflict "innate attack w/area & emanation" can have fun turning heroes into a bomb once per time Afflicted - not for minutes at a time. (Just try it, that latter is horribly abusive.)

- You can gift someone an ability under their control, such that they can use as if they purchased it for the duration.

Quote:
And the cost difference is actually non-trivial - an Affliction with Alternate Form (Active Change, +20%) costs 28 points, while the Affliction with Alternate Form (Reduced Time 5, +100%) costs 40. And that difference only multiplies if you want to buy more levels of Affliction to make it harder to resist.
Not even remotely related to what I said. I even clarified that the goal was not to reduce the amount of time for the Affliction to shift the target into another shape. The trade off was control (being able to shift them back and forth, later, at will, taking 10 seconds of concentration by whomever cast the Affliction for the remaining duration) vs how I described it as: zzzzap, you got hit with a shape-shifting Affliction, unmodified it takes you 10 seconds to shift and that will last the duration without further action on the caster.

If you think that's too much of a boon for afflicting shape-shifting, we can discuss that separately. There's quite a bit of broken stuff you can do with Affliction, and certainly not forcing the caster to buy a very limited ability to ignore/concentrate/ready a weaponized Affliction isn't the biggest issue.



Quote:
Psionic Powers lists Cancellation for Affliction at +10%, but that requires a touch or a roll with current range modifiers to the subject. Being able to do so at will without a roll at any distance would presumably be a bit more expensive.
Sounds like a pattern where the ability to modify an ongoing Affliction has quite a bit of utility.

If you are treating afflicted advantages as if you can turn it off and on remotely as part of afflicting, you're adding more use than I am by waiving a few turns of activation maneuvers.

Last edited by naloth; 11-13-2018 at 03:34 PM.
naloth is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
affliction, warp

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.