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Old 01-25-2023, 09:49 AM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Interesting. I've tinkered with the same, though without putting it into a game, for reasons of "lack of pressing need". It's a perfectly good idea, though. The main uses would be modifying the speed of donning/doffing armor (vital in emergency situations like "fell into river wearing plate armor"), plus making minor fitting adjustments. The Armor Mastery advantage could be dropped, with its benefits instead coming from spending x points spent on Armor Use.

A valid concept. Just not terribly exciting as skills go.
Reduction in effective weight could be an option with high skill. I tried to work out a scheme using Technical Grappling's Trained ST concept, but that arguably gives too much benefit (+1 TST is -17.5% to effective weight, for example). A simple idea would be that someone who is untrained treats armor as 20% heavier than it really is (10% if someone who does have the training was the one to put the armor on them; also 10% if the character has an appropriate skill like Soldier or a Dabbler Perk that includes the Armor Use skill), having the skill at DX+2 reduces its effective weight by 10%, and having the skill at DX+4 or higher reduces the armor's effective weight by 20%. A possible cinematic option would be to reduce it further with the expenditure of 1 FP and a roll against Armor Use - on a Success, armor weight is reduced by a further BL/2 (so for an ST 10 character with BL 20 lb, armor is 10 lb lighter), while on a Success by 5+, or any Critical Success, armor weight is reduced by a further BL (20 lb lighter for an ST 10 character), down to a minimum of treating the armor as weightless.

More cinematically, you could have an "Armor Block," representing the character purposefully putting their heaviest armor in the way of an attack. This would use skill/2+3, as normal, but on a successful defense, rather than negating the attack the character's DR is doubled instead (and possibly shifted to a different hit location, such as using a heavy bracer on your arm to block a hit to your torso).

... but that's all getting into the weeds. As noted, GURPS doesn't currently have any sort of "Armor Use" skill.
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Old 01-25-2023, 02:50 PM   #12
Maz
 
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Reduction in effective weight could be an option with high skill. I tried to work out a scheme using Technical Grappling's Trained ST concept, but that arguably gives too much benefit (+1 TST is -17.5% to effective weight, for example). A simple idea would be that someone who is untrained treats armor as 20% heavier than it really is[...]
I think this has some precedence in the rules.
The Hiking skill allows you to move 20% further on a days travel. The description of the skill says "It includes knowledge of how to pace yourself in different conditions, and how best to carry a pack".

The Packing skill stats that without someone with this skill to pack the load, pack animals in general will move 80% less in a days travel.


So an "Armour use" skill could be as simple as making a skill check when you put your armour on. A success means you reduce the effective weight of your armour by 20%
This represent you making sure the wight is evenly distributed, straps are correctly tightened or loosened, proper parts of the armour is put in it's proper place and so on. You can even do this for other people.
Advanced armour (such as a full plate with lots of parts and straps) might give a penalty to the roll. Assistance might give a bonus.
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
So an "Armour use" skill could be as simple as making a skill check when you put your armour on. A success means you reduce the effective weight of your armour by 20%
This represent you making sure the wight is evenly distributed, straps are correctly tightened or loosened, proper parts of the armour is put in it's proper place and so on. You can even do this for other people.
Advanced armour (such as a full plate with lots of parts and straps) might give a penalty to the roll. Assistance might give a bonus.
I considered something like this as an addition to the passive reduction for high skill (representing higher effective ST, as with TG's Trained ST - -10% to weight is comparable to +5% to ST, -20% to weight is comparable to +12% to ST), possibly with margin mattering - say, a further -10% reduction on a Success, a further -20% on a Success by 4+ or a Critical Success. I was thinking this would be problematic in that you'd have characters always rolling as many times as needed to get the highest reduction, even for those with low skill... but come to think of it, having the character spend extra time getting everything just right (if they have that time) seems like appropriate behavior, and will effectively show the difference between someone with high skill and someone with low skill (or even relying on a default), as the latter will take far longer to get their armor on. Probably have Failure simply mean the armor is normal weight, Failure by 4+ make the armor functionally heavier (+20%, perhaps), and Critical Failure mean the armor seems to be on right, but one of the straps will come undone at an inopportune time (say, when you get into a fight), with the same effects as having a strap cut in LTC2.

Of course, this does carry the risk of someone looking at it and saying "GURPS is so crazy, they make you roll to put on armor! Who in the world would want to play something like that?"
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Old 01-31-2023, 03:53 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

Thanks for comments/suggestions everyone. I personally think it would be reasonable that someone would suffer a DX penalty to fight in armour they're not familiar with - at least for very heavy armour. I know that trained knights had a great deal of athleticism and flexibility while wearing a full suit of plate mail, but realistically, would that be the same for everyone, even if they've never worn it (all else things being equal)? I feel like there would be some skill involved in knowing where the strongest and weakest parts of your armour is, how to move so you have the best visibility (the helmets were quite restrictive in what you could see), what your full range of movement is, or even just general confidence and familiarity with the equipment. That suggests to me there would be space for some kind of "armour use" skill, but importantly, would it be fun, or am I just inventing needless roadblocks to protect character roles? Having a think!

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so you could potentially toss some sort of Limitation on Magery that makes spells penalized if carrying too much weight, wearing metal/heavy armor, or whatever.
this is an interesting concept. I recently finished reading The Blacktongue Thief, a really excellent fantasy novel and there was a concept in there that certain materials can enhance or dampen the effects of magic.

Really recommend that book btw - I've read a lot of fantasy in the past and started to find the genre a bit stale but this one had me gripped.
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Old 01-31-2023, 06:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

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That suggests to me there would be space for some kind of "armour use" skill, but importantly, would it be fun, or am I just inventing needless roadblocks to protect character roles? Having a think!
Another potential spanner in the works - combatants are already incentivized to just pump everything they can into DX, and adding in another necessary DX-based skill is going to exacerbate that. An extreme example of this is the samurai. Such warriors had at least some skill in each of Polearm, Spear (although for these first two, one might be able to default from the other), and Two Handed Sword, in addition to some sort of unarmed grappling skill and possibly an unarmed striking skill. Their primary skills were Bow and Riding. That's already 5 to 7 DX-based skills, meaning once they have each at Default+6 (that is, when they've spent [4] on each, such that each additional +1 is another [4] on each), it would be very tempting to just add +1 to DX, which costs the same [20] as boosting 5 skills and benefits more besides (Basic Speed, Basic Move, and other DX-based skills/rolls). Adding yet another DX-based skill, Armor Use, is going to make DX-monkey builds even more tempting.
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Old 01-31-2023, 07:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

Another thing to keep in mind. I have read through the thread, no one has mentioned the COST of the heavier/more effective suits of armor.

Wealth is an Advantage not a skill. However in no culture I have ever heard of is good armor cheap.

As someone who ran a fantasy TL 4ish 150 pt base PC as a thought experiment 'Is money the best superpower?' with almost 80ish points in things like Filthy Rich, Independent Income, Business Talent/2, etc and more points in making/managing money skills; take my word for it the price tag matters.

In a campaign setting where standard starting PC wealth would allow either a good starting sword with minimal armor or a good armor set with a minimal weapon (i.e. light club anyone?) having more both costs and can be worth the cost.

Starting with Top of the Line non Magical VF Chain and an near Artifact level sword you bought with 'change' as 'toys' and retaining cash to buy anything, even things nominally not for sale is a power.

But remember a good GM (while making sure you get your points worth for your Advantages) will make sure the Wealth Average Status Average Joe might not be getting kick butt armor anytime soon.
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Old 01-31-2023, 08:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Adding yet another DX-based skill, Armor Use, is going to make DX-monkey builds even more tempting.
FWIW, I don't imagine this hypothetical skill as (mostly) DX-based. It'd be IQ-based for the main rolls involved: making armor fitting adjustments, as well as identifying armor parts/types (essentially acting as a Connoisseur (Body Armor), I'd think).

Cutting the time to don/doff armor would sensibly be DX-based, though, as would a roll to more effectively skewer a foe when wearing spiked armor.

Advantage-type benefits should probably be based on relative skill level, I'd think. For example, if the skill were intended to replace the Armor Mastery advantage, a skill level of IQ+1 might offer the "no penalty from layering" ability, IQ+2 the "increase effective DR" ability, etc. (Even the IQ+0 level might offer a merit like "no trouble sleeping in armor", if the GM otherwise discourages that practice.)

Like other skills offering benefits based on relative level, what attribute is listed, and the level of the attribute, doesn't actually matter; only experience (i.e., point spend) does. The point being that, even if the skill is nominally IQ-based, a fighter's modest IQ won't at all hinder these advantage-like benefits.
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Old 01-31-2023, 10:55 AM   #18
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Default Re: 2 questions - Using GURPS ruleset in a computer game - and armour "skills"?

Typically it would just follow the pattern of the Environment Suit skill.
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