01-27-2023, 10:31 AM | #121 | ||||
Hero of Democracy
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
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For #7, my initial answer is "Family, Friends, and good treatment". People did get up and leave under the manorial system, but there were a lot of incentives to stay if you could. Travel was dangerous. Support systems for non-nobles leaving their homes were sparse. And your Family all lives in the same place, your childhood friends live there too, and its likely your spouse's family is from there as well, or at least nearby. But we'll see what the incentives actually are. I suspect the first run will be "proof of concept". Quote:
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That post has some other good stuff in it, including a base-line gurps$ to harnpence of $350 to 24p --- it'd be nice if that were 25 instead, so I could say $14 to 1p, but oh well. Maybe I'll pretend its $15 to 1p. This is mostly for cost of living, but its a fair reference.
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01-27-2023, 10:50 AM | #122 | ||||
Hero of Democracy
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
Nice to get the mages. A few issues:
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It'd also be nice to have the mageborn assigned to specific families... it matters if their father is a bowman, a smith, or the reeve. Quote:
My Yeoman "points" are super high. I'm supplying 10.5 worth of light infantry (actually three bow and a medium infantry), plus a heavy horse. Is there a reason for that? My original fief index was 0.80; you've given me 0.90. which is right?
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01-27-2023, 12:10 PM | #123 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
Hi ericthered,
The table I used to generate the famlies was different than what HARN MANOR uses in its rules. Mine was a modification of their rules based on the Hundred rolls of around 1200 AD. There, they had over 25,000 households listed. If you want, I'll try and hunt down the actual reference and page numbers. Christopher Dyer's "Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social Change in England c.1200–1520". This is almost my BIBLE where it comes to digging up material for use with a medieval campaign. My other go to is Gies and Gies LIFE IN A MEDIEVAL VILLAGE. There, you will find over 110 familes living at Elton Village of 1872 acres of land. If you want to read some good material about life in a medieval village, I can't recommend this book enough. There is a book out there that combines the "Life in a Medieval" series that includes Town, Castle, and Village. I don't recall its title off hand, but it is a hardcover book and big. Cathedral, Forge and Waterwheel is another good book worth reading by those authors. But I digress... The ages of the people involved were rolled against the table for ages of NPCs mostly - no modifications. That they all hovered around adult ages is the luck of the draw. Note too, that each child born from this point onwards, has a basic 2% chance of being born a mageborn. There is nothing to keep you from detailing your families down to the last drop - and making sure that random rolls do NOT create "things that don't make sense". For example? All the household heads in the Manor should be adults. If you have the time to detail the entirety of the family - you can not only generate the ages of the parents of the household, but also when their children will be born, their ages, and if you select a given year to be the present, you can go far enough into the family tree to generate those who have yet to be born. So - pick up the free PDF FAMILY TREES from the Lythia.Com Harnworld forums (I'll send you the link to that if you don't already have it). You already have HARN MANOR, which gives you about 80% of the material I work off of (save for the modified "historical tenant table" that I use: This by the way, is the original table for generating families in Harn Manor: Code:
Case 1 To 10 GetTenant = "Craftsman" Case 11 To 25 GetTenant = "Farmer" Case 26 To 60 GetTenant = "Villien" Case 61 To 80 GetTenant = "Half-Villien" Case 81 To 90 GetTenant = "Cottar" Case Else If Kingdom = "Slave-owning" Then GetTenant = "Slave" Else GetTenant = "Cottar" End If Code:
Case 1 To 10 GetHistoricTenant = "Craftsman" Case Is = 11 GetHistoricTenant = "Virgate Farmer Plus" Case 12 To 13 GetHistoricTenant = "Virgate Farmer" Case 14 To 16 GetHistoricTenant = "1/2 Virgate Farmer" Case 17 To 18 GetHistoricTenant = "1/4 Virgate Farmer" Case 19 To 25 GetHistoricTenant = "Small Farmer" Case Is = 26 GetHistoricTenant = "Villien Plus" Case 27 To 44 GetHistoricTenant = "Villien" Case 45 To 71 GetHistoricTenant = "1/2 Villien" Case 72 To 78 GetHistoricTenant = "1/4 Villien" Case 79 To 90 GetHistoricTenant = "Cottar" Case Else If Kingdom = "Slave-owning" Then GetHistoricTenant = "Slave" Else GetHistoricTenant = "Cottar" End If As a point of interest, I was initially part of the original playtest for Harn Manor - so much so that the playtest files are on my amiga 500. That computer was retired in 1995 for when I picked up my first windows machine. So those playtest files predate 1995. They were patterned more after ENCYCLOPEDIA HARNICA #3 than they were the present form you see now. Even had material on land requirements for Horses - which the present form of HARN MANOR left out. :( In any event - now you know why the numbers aren't quite what you might expect with Harn Manor. The number one complaint about Harn World is that it is way underpopulated than it should be. Almost as if it were post Black Plague than true medieval, but that's a discussion for private on another day. ;)
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01-28-2023, 10:44 AM | #124 | |||
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
1) What is the kingdom these manors are a part of like?
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2) How often do the powerful lords poach our mages? Quote:
3) If they don’t poach, why don’t they? A powerful lord would naturally want to gather as many mages under his control as possible. What keeps them from stealing mages from the manors? Quote:
The point is, if I train up some mages, and they aren’t kept secret from those higher on the food chain than me, what can I do to keep them from being taken away by the bigger fish? How do I stop the King from sending 5000 men at arms (and a few war mages) from taking all 6 of my mageborn away from my manor of 300 or so people? Because what is going to stop him from doing this? Or are we handwaving humanity’s lust for power away for the sake of the experiment? I’m not too worried about another Knight taking my mages away (it’s possible, but as you said, there is only so much money, and Knight’s likely didn’t have a lot extra to spend bribing/abducting another manor’s mages). But a Duke or King has all kinds of resources, and if they spend even 1% of their revenue on attracting mages (by whatever means) that’s likely more money than any single manor could produce. In a land where mageborn exist, they would likely be part of the feudal obligations. Much like the whole “when I need you to, you will call up your men at arms and go to war for me”. Except in this case it is “you will send your mageborn to my magic academy to be trained for my use.” Which means I would have to keep my mages both secret, and not useful enough for him to want. Which likely also means “not terribly useful at all.” What am I missing here? Why would a King who understands the uses of mages let me hold on to any and not take them for himself? I can buy that my manor lord can get the loyalty of his mages, given that he can get them early enough, but that wouldn't stop the hypothetical warlord king who wants my mages.
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01-28-2023, 10:57 AM | #125 |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
"8) What is keeping the mages from becoming lords in their own right? Are there “mage collars” that enforce loyalty?
What ever you can find in GURPS MAGIC - will be your answer, but enchanters will be few and far between. In a population of 1111 mageborn, there will be 1 magery 3, 10 magery 2, 100 magery 1, and 1000 magery 0 mages. Since that accounts for 2% of the entire population, to produce 1111 mageborn, you need a population of 55,550 people. In England circa 1200 AD, the breakdown would be... 40,000 mageborn for a population of 2 million. Of that 2 Million people, a roughly EQUAL number would be Noble born (ie, roughly 2% of the 2 million population were nobility. That leaves the rest..." So, basically nothing. Well, the Oath spell would be the most likely, but even that one has quite the prereq list. I don't think you can build a reasonably flexible enchanter mage for less than 200 character points. So enchanting items for controlling mages wasn't really a viable option. The Oath spell, if it were known, would likely become part of the Oath of Fealty, which might actually go a long way to both stabilizing the kingdom by limiting Game of Thrones style backstabbing among the nobility, and provide a methodology to keep mages "local" instead of being taken away by more powerful nobles.
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Warmest regards, StevenH My current worldbuilding project. You can find the Adventure Logs of the campaign here. I try to write them up as narrative prose, with illustrations. As such, they are "embellished" accounts of the play sessions. Link of the moment: Bestiary of Plants. In a world of mana, plants evolved to use it as an energy source. It is also the new home of the Alaconius Lectures, a series of essays about the various Colleges of Spells. |
01-28-2023, 11:12 AM | #126 |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
"13) How do our manor lords pay for the political power they have? Contacts? Allies? Enemies? Legal Enforcement Powers are part of it, but how do you buy the amount of influence a US Senator has? Or the President? Granted, our lords are petty nobles, but they are competing with Barons, Counts, Dukes, and the King (not to mention all of the other layers of feudal bureaucracy).
When you say "Pay" - are you talking meta-game with character points, or are you talking from the viewpoint of a Noble born "Knight" who pays to his liege in the form of gifts and his own payments owed (be it labor or kind or cash)?" Character points. Meta game stuff. I know that we don't need to pay for wealth or status. But I was assuming we were just lords of a manor, not someone with Status 8. But even high status doesn't necessarily confer political power. Kings have Status 7, but some kings have more power than others, even if their status is the same. How do we model (pay for with CPs) access to the Special Forces, secret service, a network of spies, men-at-arms, etc? Contacts? Allies? Or is it all assumed under "Status" (which for us is 3, I assume, which is Manorial Lord)?
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Warmest regards, StevenH My current worldbuilding project. You can find the Adventure Logs of the campaign here. I try to write them up as narrative prose, with illustrations. As such, they are "embellished" accounts of the play sessions. Link of the moment: Bestiary of Plants. In a world of mana, plants evolved to use it as an energy source. It is also the new home of the Alaconius Lectures, a series of essays about the various Colleges of Spells. |
01-28-2023, 11:48 AM | #127 |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
Two more meta game related questions.
You (Hal, that is) have said not to worry about Wealth and Status. Does that include Rank (Feudal societies often had Rank=Status), Legal Enforcement Power (level 3), Reputation, and Social Regard? Also, with Status and Rank comes Duty (to our feudal liege, presumably). Is that part of the "Gift Package" as well? Status 3, Rank 3, and Legal Enforcement Powers 3 cost 45pts. A Manorial Lord would have all of these things. All three of these also usually include some kind of Duty, likely -5 pts (Frequency 9-, and would likely include hosting higher nobility when they visit, traveling to confer with higher ups, and being called to war; I also wouldn't call it Extremely Hazardous or Involuntary, or Nonhazardous. Just a run of the mill bog-standard Duty.) Third question: what is the penalty for ignoring the Duty to the higher ups? I'm assuming any lord I make has given his Oath of Fealty in good faith, and actually supports the Baron above him, and the King above him. (Although that leaves open his allegiance to the Count and Duke above him.) But what about the Lord who DOESN'T give his fealty in good faith? Is there any likelihood of the Feudal Duty being Involuntary? Such as "swear fealty to me or I will kill your child that I am fostering"? Are nobles treated better because they are nobles (Social Regard)? If so, by how much? Reputation is a personal thing, but Social Regard is a societal thing, and thus not under personal control. Although, I suppose, like Reputation, you can zero it out by making the SR affect different groups and balancing it by using Social Stigma from other groups.
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Warmest regards, StevenH My current worldbuilding project. You can find the Adventure Logs of the campaign here. I try to write them up as narrative prose, with illustrations. As such, they are "embellished" accounts of the play sessions. Link of the moment: Bestiary of Plants. In a world of mana, plants evolved to use it as an energy source. It is also the new home of the Alaconius Lectures, a series of essays about the various Colleges of Spells. |
01-29-2023, 01:17 AM | #128 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
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Problem the second: If mageborn existed in the time of historical periods where feudal oaths were being considered, the question arises "might not the services of mageborn, like those of yeomanry and knights, been part of an obligation? The answer then becomes one of "how does one rate a mageborn in comparison with a Knight or a yeoman or even a simple soldier? If a Knight can't supply a mageborn, where does he find a mercenary mageborn to cover his required obligation? I would suggest that if you engage in a few scenarios where you take a single yeoman up against a single mageborn limited to Magery 0 - and see what the net result is. Then run the same scenario versus a magery 1 mageborn, etc - until a single mageborn can reliably beat out a single warrior. With GURPS MAGIC as written, I would bet that the answer will be mageborn aren't reliable enough in a combat situation, to be the equal of a warrior. So, the shoe is now on your foot. Rate the mageborn relative to the yoemanry and decide if a mageborn is the equal of a light foot soldier, a medium foot soldier, an archer, or even a sergeant (mounted infantry). Chances are, a single mageborn will not be the equal of any of the above. Keep in mind, the BULK of mageborn will have magery 0. This of course, presumes the 10:1 ratio of lesser magery to the next greater level of magery. If magey can change with time - that throws a whole different problem into the mix - and will change the demographics of how many of any given magery exists within the general population. Quote:
The number ONE thing that people fail to heed is that an oath of fealty is a two way contract, not a one way contract. Quote:
In the end? Society itself will police its own social mores (pronounced as So-shall more-rayz) by socially punishing those who violate the social customs or social mores.
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01-29-2023, 02:18 AM | #129 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
1)
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2) As Hal implied, basically, Magna Carta, possibly. A lot seems to have revolved around agreements between the King and the various nobles, by which they would serve him as long as he kept to certain agreements. Kings could and did break those agreements, or try to change the laws to be more in their favour. But doing that too often might result in the nobles all worrying that the same thing might happen to them and rebelling in a body, and the king couldn't take on all of them at once. Even an officially absolute monarch needs to keep the support of a certain amount of his people (and particularly, the ones providing his army) at any one time. In this setting, the agreements might well include something like "this manor undertakes to provide 10 man-days of mage-work a year to the king". (There might be haggling over whether a manor had deliberately sent its most useless mages). If we're roughly using mediaeval England as a template, things seem to have been pretty Wild West among the "nobility" (it seems like there was frequently only a generation or two between "successful bandit" and "aristocrat" and it showed), so kidnapping each others' mages seems like it might well be part of the normal round of dirty work at the crossroads. However, this might be limited by the same factors that prevented them from just upping and declaring war on each other (at least not too often). If it was a more powerful noble who did it, and you didn't have the firepower to stop him yourself, you could appeal to the King (results depending on which of you he likes better and how anxious he is not to have a war right now). If it was the King, you might be out of luck, but he might be wary of breaking pre-arranged deals with his knights too often in case they all rebelled at once for fear that the same thing would happen to them - he could squelch one knight, but he couldn't take all of them on at once. (It sounds like Hal is thinking of using a random table of outside awkward events that might happen to manors from time to time, and trouble from other nobles or the king might be included in that). 10) Quote:
13) The omission of Wealth, Status, Duty, etc. might be a question of "these things are omitted from the sheet to be replaced with Hal improvising stuff that seems applicable for the circumstances, rather than using GURPS stats". How many men-at-arms you can command, for instance, seems like it would be a direct function of how many men-at-arms you actually have on your manor spreadsheet. The "Duty" seems like it would be basically just recording formally how often Hal's RNG is expected to mess with us in the category of "orders from higher up" :-D Quote:
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01-29-2023, 06:52 AM | #130 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3
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**teasing grin** Keep in mind, that GURPS suffers from Mission creep like many fourth and fifth editions of games. Things that were built in the Early days of the game system's life, may not be 100% logical by the time the next edition is printed, let alone one that is about 3 editions later and nearly what, 20 year later? Take Social Status. In the olden days, take Status 3 for a landed knight and you were done. But what precisely is the difference between a Knight and a Landed Knight? Wealth? Land? Obligations? advantages in return to the obligations? So, let's see how things work out. If you read social regard, it ALMOST seems perfect fit for the differences between: Unfree (Slaves) Servi (Serfs) Freeborn Noble Born But the reality is, Social Regard is pre-empted by the "where one is in the social ladder" that is the domain of Status. Being born noble puts you in a social order, not a social regard order. So, let's leave out social regard largely because of what perks being born into a social class grants. Were I to price the package for a Noble:
The template above is what I think I'd use were I to run a campaign today. As you can see, the overall price tag for such a noble is a hefty 33 points versus the original 15 from the early editions of GURPS. Does it play any differently either way? Not really. Any GM who runs a campaign in which the nobility were largely exempt from laws affecting the base born, was already giving the player the advantage as part and parcel of social status 3. GURPS made it more costly later.
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