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Old 03-07-2019, 07:22 PM   #21
maximara
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
This only holds true if you keep using S&S, yet the Enchanters Staff makes Q&D a lot more usable.

I believe that S&S allows you to not roll for success, so no chance of quirking. Of course there is the question of way a Mage needs a Staff that allows him to cast a whole bunch of spells, but probably best not to look into that..
Incorrect on both accounts.

"To perform enchantments, the caster and any assistants must know both the Enchant spell and the specific spell being put on the item at an effective skill of 15 or better." (Magic 16)

"Success Rolls for Enchanting; The GM makes all rolls to enchant magic items. As with other ceremonial magic, a roll of 16 fails automatically and a roll of 17-18 is a critical failure. (...) On a failure, the results depend on the method used to enchant the item – see below. A critical failure always destroys the item and all materials used." (Magic 17).

Then it talks about Quick and Dirty Enchantment.

"Succeed or fail, all the energy is spent when the GM rolls the dice."

"The caster is at -1 to skill for each assistant; therefore, the number of assistants allowed is the number that would reduce the caster’s effective skill to 15. With more assistants, the enchantment won’t work. If anyone but the caster and his assistants is within 10 yards, the spell is at a further -1."

"On a failure, the enchantment perverts in some way."

"the third gem was shattered in a critical failure, but Tubbs promises he’ll keep the cat out of the workshop from now on" (example text)

After all that GURPS Magic goes on to detail S&S enchantment.

On DF, Adventures (pg 30) has this: "Costs assume that enchanted items up to 100 energy points are Quick and Dirty ($1/point), that more powerful artifacts are second-hand Slow and Sure items ($20/point), and that alchemical amulets are rare ($66/day, plus ingredients).

So Q&D is not going to make magic item creation any easier because of the assistant penalty.

An enchanter would need skill 20 in Enchantment and the spells being enchanted into an item to have five assistants. Magic considers an enchantment circle of six to be about as big as they get so items of about 60 energy are about as good as it gets with Q&D barring an insane number of Powerstones or enchanters crazy enough to mess around in Unlimited Mana for Q&D enchantment.

Last edited by maximara; 03-07-2019 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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Yes. It is at least as undesirable as the calculation of (Value of beer- lost night in other dimension - taxi fare home) would make it. That makes it less desirable than a night's worth of regular beer and that isn't that much on a scale of magic items.
By the time your transported off to another dimension I'm pretty sure that your not going to notice that your no longer in Kansas anymore and there's no taxi fare home, as from what the description reads you'll still be on the same property as where you started.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Incorrect on both accounts.

"Success Rolls for Enchanting; The GM makes all rolls to enchant magic items. As with other ceremonial magic, a roll of 16 fails automatically and a roll of 17-18 is a critical failure. (...) On a failure, the results depend on the method used to enchant the item – see below. A critical failure always destroys the item and all materials used." (Magic 17).

Then it talks about Quick and Dirty Enchantment.

"Succeed or fail, all the energy is spent when the GM rolls the dice."

"The caster is at -1 to skill for each assistant; therefore, the number of assistants allowed is the number that would reduce the caster’s effective skill to 15. With more assistants, the enchantment won’t work. If anyone but the caster and his assistants is within 10 yards, the spell is at a further -1."

"On a failure, the enchantment perverts in some way."

"the third gem was shattered in a critical failure, but Tubbs promises he’ll keep the cat out of the workshop from now on" (example text)

After all that GURPS Magic goes on to detail S&S enchantment.
An Enchanter's Staff allows 5 more assistants for Q&D. And for S&S it's taken as a given, and I believe there's a Kromm post around somewhere that supports this, that S&S is an automatic success, purely because of how much time it takes it would be unfair to roll with the chance of failure.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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Let me ask you this: Does the fact that this beer does what it does make it that much less desirable? Sure as a way of getting around this is a joke, but as a source of infinite free beer, well it's a source of infinite free beer.

Yes. Because being whisked off elsewhere every time you get drunk is only going to be desired by the very strange as it's unlikely to be uniformly fun or interesting. Think of what your GM would do; that's going to happen every time.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:10 PM   #24
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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So Q&D is not going to make magic item creation any easier because of the assistant penalty.

An enchanter would need skill 20 in Enchantment and the spells being enchanted into an item to have five assistants. Magic considers an enchantment circle of six to be about as big as they get so items of about 60 energy are about as good as it gets with Q&D barring an insane number of Powerstones or enchanters crazy enough to mess around in Unlimited Mana for Q&D enchantment.

6 enchanters, with single-college cheap-stone powerstones (harder to make, but they are making these on the cheap) + a couple of points of trained Extra Fatigue + a familiar giving half a dozen points of ER + some non-mages in an adjacent room with Lend Energy wands for recovery. Rather more than 60 pt. at a time, and several casts per day.

If you charge as if you only had 60, though, you can pocket the cost difference.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

Between cheap powerstones and paut, practical upper limit on Q&D is 800 energy (it takes 1 hour per 100 energy, and suffering long task modifiers would be a problem, otherwise you could probably push it a bit higher).
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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By the time your transported off to another dimension I'm pretty sure that your not going to notice that your no longer in Kansas anymore and there's no taxi fare home, as from what the description reads you'll still be on the same property as where you started.
.
No, just the same dimension. The IOU campus being more or less a pocket universe in and of itself, the two are equivalent there, but in a proper universe the pool of places you might end up is much larger.
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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6 enchanters, with single-college cheap-stone powerstones (harder to make, but they are making these on the cheap) + a couple of points of trained Extra Fatigue + a familiar giving half a dozen points of ER + some non-mages in an adjacent room with Lend Energy wands for recovery. Rather more than 60 pt. at a time, and several casts per day.

If you charge as if you only had 60, though, you can pocket the cost difference.
Also incorrect.

"The caster is at -1 to skill for each assistant; therefore, the number of assistants allowed is the number that would reduce the caster’s effective skill to 15. With more assistants, the enchantment won’t work. If anyone but the caster and his assistants is within 10 yards, the spell is at a further -1."

To be far enough away not to effect the skill level every one of those non-mages need to have 25 (!) power items to have effective skill of 15 (10 hexes means -10 to effective skill)

I am building a table of enchantments using information from GURPS Magic and Fantasy so people have a good idea on how much these things cost. It going to take a while so be patent.

Last edited by maximara; 03-08-2019 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:04 AM   #28
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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Also incorrect.

"The caster is at -1 to skill for each assistant; therefore, the number of assistants allowed is the number that would reduce the caster’s effective skill to 15. With more assistants, the enchantment won’t work. If anyone but the caster and his assistants is within 10 yards, the spell is at a further -1."

To be far enough away not to effect the skill level every one of those non-mages need to have 25 (!) power items to have effective skill of 15 (10 hexes means -10 to effective skill).
The non-mages only have to be 30 feet away (in an adjacent room). When one Q&D casting is done, the mages walk into that room and get energy. Technically, the “non-mages” can be mages too, just not assistants for the enchantment.
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Old 03-08-2019, 11:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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The non-mages only have to be 30 feet away (in an adjacent room). When one Q&D casting is done, the mages walk into that room and get energy. Technically, the “non-mages” can be mages too, just not assistants for the enchantment.
This doesn't jive with the enchantment rules I have read. Please cite the work this 30 feet (ie 3 hexes) if in another room does not invoke effective skill per the within 10 yards (ie 10 hexes) penalty regarding Q&D enchantment that appears in GURPS Magic occurs in.

I'm not saying that we can't house rule it but people should know that it is a house rule (or a possibly depreciated 3e rule)

Last edited by maximara; 03-08-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 03-08-2019, 11:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

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This doesn't jive with the enchantment rules I have read.
The lend energy wands are for recovering energy after the enchantment is finished, not making the enchantment more powerful; it just saves you downtime between attempts.
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