Mind Control with continous resist rolls

[Grunker]

Hi. I'd like a limitation for Mind Control that specifies that the victim of the control gains a contest of Will versus the controller to break free every round or similar.

Does such a limitation exist, or, if not, what would such a limitation be worth?

EDIT: Furthermore, if a character can see and talk to spirits in a world were such are normally hidden, what advantage should he buy?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Grunker

... if a character can see and talk to spirits in a world were such are normally hidden, what advantage should he buy?

Medium is where you start. The ability to actually see them, as opposed to just knowing when they're around, which you get from Medium, is a form of See Invisible.

[Grunker]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Medium is where you start. The ability to actually see them, as opposed to just knowing when they're around, which you get from Medium, is a form of See Invisible.

Of course! Thanks :)

Just need to figure out what to with MC now.

[starslayer]

Independent and reduced duration.

Independent because without it you will be stuck making the control every turn (effectively being stuck in concentrate matches), and your instantly lose control of the get out if sight, reduced duration to turn the duration of mind control to one second. I think it works out to a net -20% limitation. Of note this also allows you to control multiple people without issue.

[Grunker]

Quick question: where is the 'reduced duration' limitation? I can't seem to find it in my books.

Originally Posted by starslayer

Independent and reduced duration.

Independent because without it you will be stuck making the control every turn (effectively being stuck in concentrate matches), and your instantly lose control of the get out if sight, reduced duration to turn the duration of mind control to one second. I think it works out to a net -20% limitation. Of note this also allows you to control multiple people without issue.

If the Duration of Mind Control is 1 second, aren't you "stuck in concentrate matches" as well, since it's a Concentrate maneuver to "start" a Mind Control?

If so, Independent would be useless anyway :)

Also: it's actually not too much of a problem if you have to make Concetrate maneuvers each round. I'm trying to make an ability for the group's shaman who can basically force spirits to do his bidding, but they will struggle to free themselves.

If Reduced Duration can reduce MC to something like 4-10 seconds, that would probably be ideal. This would mean he would have to contest the spirit every so often during combat.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Grunker

Quick question: where is the 'reduced duration' limitation? I can't seem to find it in my books.

Psionic Powers, pg 21. It specifies it can not be applied to advantages with a maintained duration (specifically Mind Control). It then calls out that Mind Control modified by Independent bypasses this, as Independent (Powers pg 108) switches it from "requires concentration" to "Once on lasts minutes equal to MoS/MoV or it's usual duration, whichever is less". However you can no longer end a Mind Control... it will now last until it's duration runs out.

If the Duration of Mind Control is 1 second, aren't you "stuck in concentrate matches" as well, since it's a Concentrate maneuver to "start" a Mind Control?

I think the idea is it lasts it's duration, then the user auto-re-initiates, there is no 'fixed duration' with Independent. With Reduced Duration it reduces by a fractional amount (1/2, 1/3, 1/6, up to 1/60) which is still dependent on the MoV.

However... I don't think it would work that way. I think Independent with Reduced Duration means it lasts it's new duration (say you went with 1/60 to drop it from minutes to seconds) and then the Mind Controller has to start fresh, so if they spirit moved out of range, he's screwed.

By the way; Independent is +40% (for Mind Control), maximum Reduced Duration is -35%*, so it's a net of +5%. Which feels wrong to me.

It shouldn't be costing points to make Mind Control last less time.

Of course you can just make it a Rule Zero switch that spirits automatically get to resist every order given, so if the Controller succeeds with an order and the spirit loses it will follow that order until given a new one** at which point it gets a fresh new resistance. That's probably how I'd do it, less math and strange Enhancement/Limitation results.




* This is the maximum because the minimum duration Independent Mind Control can achieve is 1 minute (1 MoV), which cannot be reduced below 1 second by Reduced Duration.

** Actually until it has to actually perform the order as per RAW for Mind Control.

If Reduced Duration can reduce MC to something like 4-10 seconds, that would probably be ideal. This would mean he would have to contest the spirit every so often during combat.

It can. OF course you can also just ignore the "Cannot be applied to an advantage like Mind Control without also applying Independent" and apply Reduced Duration directly. If you want a 4-10 second duration figure out the PC's general MoV (say he gets an average roll) and then figure out how many levels of Reduced Duration you need.

This is also how I'd do it if you want a variable (but short) duration.

[Grunker]

Thanks a bunch for your reply! Two questions:

1) How would you cost the "Rule Zero switch" as you called it (not sure what that actually means ;) )? Seems unfair to just tell my player to eat a lesser version of MC for the same cost.

2) Near as I can tell, applying reduced duration so that it lasts 1 second per margin of success instead of 1 minute per margin doesn't seem unbalanced or problematic to me. Is there a reason I should be worried about such a non-RAW application of Reduced Duration?

EDIT: Mind Control even stats you can take Extended Duration to make it last longer, so why would the opposite be a huge problem?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Grunker

Thanks a bunch for your reply! Two questions:

1) How would you cost the "Rule Zero switch" as you called it (not sure what that actually means ;) )? Seems unfair to just tell my player to eat a lesser version of MC for the same cost.

Rule Zero is an old reference to "The Rule Zero": The GM has final say.

Calling it a Rule Zero Switch means your just changing the way all spirits (or whatever) work as a general rule state, but aren't making the PCs pay for/get any extra points for it.

For instance as a Rule Zero Switch I give my Players "Impulse Points" to buy rule breaking moments during play (from Power-Ups: Impulse Buys) I don't charge them for this as the 'rule zero' is: All PCs get X number of Impulse Points.

If someone didn't want Impulse Points... then I'd have to figure out how much that disadvantage would be (and it would be hefty). If someone wants more, again I'd have to figure it out (luckily there are a few advantages already statted out to help with that).

2) Near as I can tell, applying reduced duration so that it lasts 1 second per margin of success instead of 1 minute per margin doesn't seem unbalanced or unproblematic to me. Is there a reason I should be worried about such a non-RAW application of Reduced Duration?

I don't see anything that would break. However I'm sure there are 'reasons' it was done the way it was done, I just don't understand them.

[Grunker]

For instance as a Rule Zero Switch I give my Players "Impulse Points" to buy rule breaking moments during play (from Power-Ups: Impulse Buys) I don't charge them for this as the 'rule zero' is: All PCs get X number of Impulse Points.

Ah, so it's like my rule that all PCs start with Zeroed. Gotcha.

I don't see anything that would break. However I'm sure there are 'reasons' it was done the way it was done, I just don't understand them.

Gonna go ahead and roll with this until something/someone proves it unwise then. Thanks a lot for your assistance. Incidentally just bought Impulse Buys because that's a great way of simulating the Karma Pool in our Shadowrun game.

Something ironic of buying a book called "Impulse Buys" on the spur of the moment...

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I don't see anything that would break. However I'm sure there are 'reasons' it was done the way it was done, I just don't understand them.

That's how Reduced Duration interacts with Affliction, so I don't see any real problem with the idea of interacting with MOS like that. But Mind Control isn't, by default, purely MOS based. There's still that front-loaded as-long-as-you-Concentrate section, which if you want to get rid of that, will require another limitation.