is there a "spells on" penalty to item's Power for Using Magic Items?

[Plane]

Normal casters who want to cast multiple instances of the same spell (even if they can cast that spell for free) are limited due to the "spells on" penalty: eventually that penalty will get big enough that their skill will drop and failures happen more often, and if it drops below 3 they can't cast further instances at all.

A magic item can sometimes also cast a spell for free: there is no discount for high skill, but if has Energy Cost 1 and the item has Power 1, for example, it is free to cast and doesn't even require the caster to remain conscious to keep it going (P57) which could in theory allow infinite instances of the spell to go on unless there is some kind of control mechanism in place.

M110 "Wand of Light" for example can be created for 600 energy. Does that just let you make "infinite lights" ?

It seems like allowing "spells on" to apply to Power could limit this, and give advantages to higher-Power enchantments.

A power 15 wand of light for example, would have "Effective Power" reduced to 14 for the 2nd light it created (until dismissing the first) and roll against that.

This would go on until "I'm maintaining 13 lights" reduces effective skill to 2, which is too low to create additional lights.

A "power 20 wand of light" OTOH could maintain up to 18 lights before reaching "effective skill 2".

Does that seem reasonable if we use 2 as the cutoff and not 14?

Concentrating on moving lights (which I think usually changes -1 to -3) should also make it harder to cast additional ones until you stop moving them.

To use the power 15 example, if you've only cast 5 lights (-5 to skill = effective power 10) you could create more if not moving them, but moving all of them is -15 to skill, so you couldn't make more during the maneuver you were still concentrating on light-relocation movement?

[Black Leviathan]

If you're using a magic item in GURPS you're casting the spell just as surely as if you rolled against a spell on your character sheet. You're still expending energy, directing the effect or targeting someone with the thrown spell. You'd be dealing with the same distractions of holding a spell effect from a wand or from your bare hands.

The only exception I could see is magic items with always-on effects like Enchantment abilities. At the point where a spell has a permanent effect you're not really the caster anymore.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

If you're using a magic item in GURPS you're casting the spell just as surely as if you rolled against a spell on your character sheet. You're still expending energy, directing the effect or targeting someone with the thrown spell. You'd be dealing with the same distractions of holding a spell effect from a wand or from your bare hands.

The only exception I could see is magic items with always-on effects like Enchantment abilities. At the point where a spell has a permanent effect you're not really the caster anymore.

That seems to be the distinction, since while normally "0 to cast, 0 to maintain" (for high skill) will stop running when you fall asleep, when Power brings it there for magic items, they will not stop if you are asleep, meaning that they don't seem to be reliant on you for maintenance...

That's the point where I wonder if a -1 based on spells active under the user of the item makes sense, rather than spells active on that item itself.

Applying them to the power of the item seems like a way to avoid "I'll just hand off my Staff of Light to the next guy who will then create free lasting-forever light spells". By having a max per-item rather than per-user then you'd need multiple items to get a certain number of simltaneous effects.

[Taneli]

Re-reading rules and FAQ, no, you can’t make hundreds of lights using the Wand of Light with Power 1, as you would still get -1 for each temporary spell "on" as per Magic Item rules and FAQ, and you would also need to roll successfully for each casting.

What I have done in my games to make casting -type magic items more popular and even useful to mages who know the spell is to count temporary spells separately for items. That is, if you have the wand above with power 15, and it has been used to create 3 lights that are still on, you or anybody else who uses it to cast a 4th light is at -3 to do so. But if you want to cast a spell that you know, you have no spells on -penalty (unless of course you have other temporary spells on). This also applies to other similar penalties, like the one some healing spells have on repeated castings on the same subject within a 24-hour period.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Taneli

Re-reading rules and FAQ, no, you can’t make hundreds of lights using the Wand of Light with Power 1, as you would still get -1 for each temporary spell "on" as per Magic Item rules and FAQ, and you would also need to roll successfully for each casting.

Do you recall where you saw FAQ address 'spells on' w/ Power?

Originally Posted by Taneli

What I have done in my games to make casting -type magic items more popular and even useful to mages who know the spell is to count temporary spells separately for items.

That is, if you have the wand above with power 15, and it has been used to create 3 lights that are still on, you or anybody else who uses it to cast a 4th light is at -3 to do so.

But if you want to cast a spell that you know, you have no spells on -penalty (unless of course you have other temporary spells on).

That's the rub I guess, whether the penalty applies to the item's power (penalizing others who use the item after you) or the user (penalizing the power of any future items you use) or both or neither.

Originally Posted by Taneli

This also applies to other similar penalties, like the one some healing spells have on repeated castings on the same subject within a 24-hour period.

If the penalty applies to item power, then you couldn't just hand off your "wand of free healing" to your buddy to continue double-healing the same target at no penalty...

and you COULD just pick up your "backup wand of free healing" to continue healing the same target yourself at no penalty.

I guess if the answer was "both" (-1 to any spells you cast or other items you use AND -1 to power of first item used by others... though don't double-count it) it would be extremely limiting.

"Neither" would be crazy powerful OTOH.

Which of the four options to take is an answer I can't seem to find in FAQ right now.

[Taneli]

It addressed the spells on generically, and as per GURPS Magic, those apply to magic items too.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Taneli

It addressed the spells on generically, and as per GURPS Magic, those apply to magic items too.

which page of magic mentions spells-on applying to items?

[mirtexxan]

Have you found an answer to this question?

BTW, I found out that DFRPG Magic Items makes a lot of rulings related to these matters. In particular, on p.10 it is postulated that only one person at a time can ever have spells "on" via a given casting item... and that Healing items keep a "per item" casting count.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Plane

which page of magic mentions spells-on applying to items?

Page 19 says that "all the usual modifiers apply for the type of spell being cast". The spells on penalty counts as a usual modifier.

[mirtexxan]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Page 19 says that "all the usual modifiers apply for the type of spell being cast". The spells on penalty counts as a usual modifier.

But we still lack a piece of the puzzle. It is unclear if spells cast by items count as "spells on"...