Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

[RedMattis]

I personally like the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling a bit more for its simplicity, but there are some points which I'm wondering are because of space requirements/simplicity or balance.

Constriction Attack inflicts double CP in Technical Grappling. This seems gone in Fantastic Grappling.

The Binding advantage is also not mentioned. Should we assume it just inflicts CP as normal? What about stuff like spider-web or anything with layering? Should we just assume there is no upper CP limit for it? Also, Engulfing doubled CP inflicted, do you still think this should be a thing? Same with Binding having DR/Control Resistance equal to level/3.

I don't see any mention of how much CR inflicted by grappling with weapons either, or the max CR. Technical Grappling had a bunch of rules about leverage?

Anything else which didn't really get transferred?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

I personally like the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling a bit more for its simplicity, but there are some points which I'm wondering are because of space requirements/simplicity or balance.

Simplicity and conformity with the rules and assumptions for a product that supports the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. "Balance" is tricky no matter what.

We tried to distill it down to its essence, remove the special-case rules that made it more complex than needed.

Constriction Attack inflicts double CP in Technical Grappling. This seems gone in Fantastic Grappling.

If one hearkens back to the Basic Set, Constriction Attack is just "you can roll a QC and damage your opponent each turn after a grapple."

The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK." It's simpler, requires no special cases, and closer to both the Basic Set and the (more pertinent) rules for Suffocation on Exploits p. 70.

one of the reasons for the extra CP in the original TG was the requirement to (almost) always spend CP for damage. You'll notice that's not always enforced in FDG, though it's always optional. While it worked as a mechanic, narratively it was always jarring.

The Binding advantage is also not mentioned.

Not precisely true. It is mentioned on p. 8 in "It's a Trap!"

Should we assume it just inflicts CP as normal? What about stuff like spider-web or anything with layering? Should we just assume there is no upper CP limit for it?

The strength of a binding is set by the power/ability design. Much like any other grappling attack, it has a maximum grapple power equal to 2x it's Control Maximum. For a spell or power that just grabs you and never rolls to defend itself, I'd just let CP accumulate to that maximum value and then that's it.

Also, Engulfing doubled CP inflicted, do you still think this should be a thing?

I don't think so. If you wanted to make an engulfing attack harder to break out of, assign Control Resistance as recommended in "It's a Trap!"

I don't see any mention of how much CR inflicted by grappling with weapons either, or the max CR. Technical Grappling had a bunch of rules about leverage?

Technical Grappling more or less tried to provide special consideration for everything, because I was a novice writer. "A bunch of rules..." for everything is less helpful than good guidance and fewer special cases...or that's what years of playing with the rules in actual games taught me.

Control Resistance is not a feature of most weapons. Special items like handcuffs, sure (see It's a Trap again). The maximum CR will depend on the device. Cuffs sufficient to entrap a ST 50 giant will probably have CR of 25 or even more.

Grappling with weapons is now a bit of a switch. Some weapons (most weapons, since you can "grapple" with a sword or shield using the Weapon/Shield Bind concept, it's just your foe can escape from that kind of grapple simply by backing up) enable you to grapple with them, from a distance. CP rolled is set by your thrust damage, and Judo or Melee Weapon gives boosts for skill. It would be entirely plausible for a GM to say "Hmm...a garotte is a purpose-built grappling weapon, so we're going to base it on the Wrestling progression instead of Judo."

Returning to the beginning: Keeping it simple was the goal. The Chaotic GM has a great piece on how you can do just about every Technique in TG with FDG for those who want more detail.

[RedMattis]

The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK." It's simpler, requires no special cases, and closer to both the Basic Set and the (more pertinent) rules for Suffocation on Exploits p. 70.

This makes the Constriction advantage rather underwhelming though? You're paying a lot of points for the ability to choke a fairly limited group of targets without targeting the neck.

<weapons>

So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?

[Exxar]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

The Binding advantage is also not mentioned. Should we assume it just inflicts CP as normal? What about stuff like spider-web or anything with layering? Should we just assume there is no upper CP limit for it? Also, Engulfing doubled CP inflicted, do you still think this should be a thing? Same with Binding having DR/Control Resistance equal to level/3.

I've recently started using Binding in my games and it has been working very nicely by inflicting CP based on thrust damage of its ST. There were also some talks a while back about an Innate Attack doing CP damage and what would be a good price for it (IIRC something like 10/level was being tossed around), but after going with Binding like this I don't think it's necessary for such an Innate Attack to exist.

I wouldn't use Engulfing at all with FDG, it doesn't fit the paradigm. Buy more levels of Binding and/or assign more Control Resistance. Speaking of which, I must confess I completely forgot about Control Resistance when I designed some weapons inflicting CP a while back (tanglers and similar). But it worked well without it as I simply assigned what seemed like enough control damage. That being said, it would be a good idea to figure out pricing for assigning Control Resistance to Binding, and it would also be a good idea to unify breaking a binding via grappling and breaking by damaging it. The latter hasn't come up in my campaigns yet so I haven't given it any thought. I'm just not sure that Binding should have Control Resistance equal to 1/3 ST by default.

One further datapoint - I've treated repeated Binding attacks against the same target as adding CP equal to just the number of control dice the attack normally does, as an analogue to further application of RAW Binding adding just +1 ST.

[Exxar]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?

You roll thrust appropriate for your ST + Lifting ST based on the Judo or Melee Weapon progression as per page 3 of FDG. The non-control damage of weapons is not used for anything.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

This makes the Constriction advantage rather underwhelming though? You're paying a lot of points for the ability to choke a fairly limited group of targets without targeting the neck.

In the DFRPG, Constriction Attack (Monsters, p. 10) effects coincide almost entirely with the Strangle reference from FDG. If there's a problem with cost, that's a bit tangential for this game as it's a Monster trait not found in the Adventurers book.

So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?

As Exxar said: Neither one. You roll thrust based on your (Lifting) ST, modified for skill as per Melee Weapon.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Exxar

I've recently started using Binding in my games and it has been working very nicely by inflicting CP based on thrust damage of its ST. There were also some talks a while back about an Innate Attack doing CP damage and what would be a good price for it (IIRC something like 10/level was being tossed around), but after going with Binding like this I don't think it's necessary for such an Innate Attack to exist.

For what it's worth, we had a similar type of discussion way back when for the same topic in TG, which resulted in the "Funky Powers" box in that book. Innate Attack and a telekinetic grapple were basically incompatible with each other, and using the TK grapple produced better results.

I wouldn't use Engulfing at all with FDG, it doesn't fit the paradigm. Buy more levels of Binding and/or assign more Control Resistance.

Interesting note: "engulfing goo" is mentioned under Constriction Attack. So if you want something Engulfing, just say it qualifies for Constriction Attack (Monsters p. 10) and call it a day, perhaps.

Speaking of which, I must confess I completely forgot about Control Resistance when I designed some weapons inflicting CP a while back (tanglers and similar). But it worked well without it as I simply assigned what seemed like enough control damage. That being said, it would be a good idea to figure out pricing for assigning Control Resistance to Binding, and it would also be a good idea to unify breaking a binding via grappling and breaking by damaging it. The latter hasn't come up in my campaigns yet so I haven't given it any thought. I'm just not sure that Binding should have Control Resistance equal to 1/3 ST by default.

This is likely true; the effect of Control Resistance is similar to that of an always-successful re-grapple, with as many attacks as needed, etc. Getting an extra few points of CR is a big deal. A point of CR is likely worth more than twice as much as a Control Point, as it's always there and can't be removed.

One further datapoint - I've treated repeated Binding attacks against the same target as adding CP equal to just the number of control dice the attack normally does, as an analogue to further application of RAW Binding adding just +1 ST.

That's a nice simple way of doing it. Another would likely be "reroll damage, keep it if higher."

[Christopher R. Rice]

I've used both in campaigns and I think it was in my AEON supers game where we (Doug and I) started stripping down TG to be simpler for the other players. I know we were using some ideas Peter Dell'Orto had and eventually Doug wrote up Dungeon Grappling. FDG didn't come around until the next campaign where we used it instead of the base rules from then on.

I've probably used it more than any GM that isn't Doug at this point as I've run hundreds of sessions and it was adopted for use before it was released to the public. It's a good system and it mirrors how grappling really works (and you don't have to worry about things like "Grip ST") and it's simple. You don't always get those two in the same package, much less well-built to boot.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

In the DFRPG, Constriction Attack (Monsters, p. 10) effects coincide almost entirely with the Strangle reference from FDG. If there's a problem with cost, that's a bit tangential for this game as it's a Monster trait not found in the Adventurers book.

Don't have the DFRPG main books, only the GURPS ones. I mostly bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling book because it was a simplified version of the Technical Grappling one.

Anyway, does strangling take an action, or it is a free action anyone can do it when they grapple the right location? It is a bit unclear to me based on what FDG says.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Don't have the DFRPG main books, only the GURPS ones. I mostly bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling book because it was a simplified version of the Technical Grappling one.

Sensible! But the book is written in the context of larger-than-life fantasy exploits based on a specific ruleset, in this case the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Anyway, does strangling take an action, or it is a free action anyone can do it when they grapple the right location? It is a bit unclear to me based on what FDG says.

It's an attack that takes your entire turn, definitely not a free action. I'd rule you can't do it twice (Rapid Strike to strangle twice, for example).