[RPM] Help me tweak the basic RPM system

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Fourth, the article did some unnecessary reinventing of the wheel, and didn't think through the implications of what it was doing well enough. In particular, it removes all of the benefits of Ritual Adept without removing Ritual Adept:

Originally Posted by dataweaver

That's OK; I generally wouldn't expect a Witch to use Alchemy.

Indeed. In fact, I would have preferred Bottled Magic to have been geared specifically for use by the Sage.

I find your statements contradictory... pick one please!

On the contrary; I think it could fit Monster Hunters quite well as an alternate magic system for the Sage to use, making his niché even more distinct.

Mmm... Maybe. Probably. In fact using it would make for a very interesting sage variant.

I wonder if what I was hoping for is different enough from Bottled Magic that it could also end up as a Pyramid article of its own…

If you were to do that, I would recommend that you make the article on how to create a Sage variant that is distinct enough. One that is more focused on magic than in general lore and magic, with a box on how to use this kind of magic for nonhumans...

I feel that you could, and IMHO, it would work even better if you cited Bottled Magic instead of repeating things from it...

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I find your statements contradictory... pick one please!

There is no contradiction. My fourth issue wasn't that Bottled Magic shouldn't void the benefits of Ritual Adept; it was that alchemists shouldn't have Ritual Adept. That's why I wouldn't expect Witches to use alchemy.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Mmm... Maybe. Probably. In fact using it would make for a very interesting sage variant.

If you were to do that, I would recommend that you make the article on how to create a Sage variant that is distinct enough. One that is more focused on magic than in general lore and magic, with a box on how to use this kind of magic for nonhumans...

A good idea; I'll look into it. My main concern here is that the space required to tweak the Sage into a more purely magic-oriented Alchemist would eat into the space needed to outline the changes to RPM needed to create the Alchemy rules that I'm looking for. As well, I'm not sure that there would be much to do here beyond what Sage already covers with its customization notes for specializing in magic. Really, the main tweak would be to replace Thaumaturgy with Alchemy and to change the focus of his Magery from RPM to Alchemy; at first glance at least, everything else is quite appropriate for an alchemist as is.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I feel that you could, and IMHO, it would work even better if you cited Bottled Magic instead of repeating things from it...

As I mentioned before, my main concern is with the article getting rejected because it's a different take on alchemy than Bottled Magic provides, and one that's potentially incompatible with it. As such, there wouldn't be much from Bottled Magic that I could cite: the only possibilities I can think of would be the sample potions. The rest would be different.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

There is no contradiction. My fourth issue wasn't that Bottled Magic shouldn't void the benefits of Ritual Adept; it was that alchemists shouldn't have Ritual Adept. That's why I wouldn't expect Witches to use alchemy.

A good idea; I'll look into it. My main concern here is that the space required to tweak the Sage into a more purely magic-oriented Alchemist would eat into the space needed to outline the changes to RPM needed to create the Alchemy rules that I'm looking for. As well, I'm not sure that there would be much to do here beyond what Sage already covers with its customization notes for specializing in magic. Really, the main tweak would be to replace Thaumaturgy with Alchemy and Magery (implicitly RPM) with Magery (Alchemical); at first glance at least, everything else is quite appropriate for an alchemist as is.

As I mentioned before, my main concern is with the article getting rejected because it's a different take on alchemy than Bottled Magic provides, and one that's potentially incompatible with it. As such, there wouldn't be much from Bottled Magic that I could cite: the only possibilities I can think of would be the sample potions. The rest would be different.

Explaining how to dapt the sage to this variant of alchemy will not et that much wordcount, and will help make the article more separte from bottled magic. What will this new magery do? Because from what I read in your texts, you are not going for magery as a magical energy reserve, since you prefer the effect shaping paradigm (so did I until I saw RPM). If you feel that you don't need to make large changes to the Sage, the you can easily put the variations in a box. You get your cake and eat it, this way: having the variant lsage makes it more attractive for sjg, makes it more different from bottled magic, and you get to espose your system from a generic standpoint

[Refplace]

Since the next Thaumatology book is not even on the wish list you probably have plenty of time. I also like it as a Sage variant if its for the MH line rather then the Witch.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Explaining how to adapt the sage to this variant of alchemy will not et that much wordcount, and will help make the article more separate from bottled magic.

As long as the word count can be kept down, and I can find something useful to say on the subject, I'm very definitely not opposed to it.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

What will this new magery do? Because from what I read in your texts, you are not going for magery as a magical energy reserve, since you prefer the effect shaping paradigm (so did I until I saw RPM).

Correction: I prefer the Effect Shaping paradigm for alchemy. The Energy Accumulation model has its place, and in Monster Hunters that place is the magic system used by Witches; it is quintessentially about utilizing ambient magical energy. Alchemy is not. This isn't about Effect Shaping being better than Energy Accumulation; it's about it being more appropriate to the flavor of magic being sought out here.

And really, the most innovative thing about RPM isn't its use of Energy Accumulation; it's the "roll your own Ritual" system. The key to switching RPM over from energy-accumulation to effect-shaping lies in adjusting the "Ritual Definition and Cost" section to work according to the skill penalties paradigm of effect-shaping instead of the energy-costs paradigm of energy-accumulation. That, I think, is where the bulk of the word-count would need to go.

As for Magery, I can think of two obvious answers to your question: have Magery (Alchemy) add to Formulae (the alchemical counterpart to a Ritual) instead of acting as a cap to alchemical skills (as per the advice on p.123 of Thaumatology), or have it provide less restrictive caps to the skills: Thaumatology suggests 10+(2×Magery) instead of Monster Hunter's 12+Magery. Given a choice between these options, I'd go with the former: it's already the recommended option in Thaumatology for Effect-Shaping magic, just as "Magery Caps Skills" is the recommended option for Energy Accumulating magic.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

If you feel that you don't need to make large changes to the Sage, the you can easily put the variations in a box. You get your cake and eat it, this way: having the variant Sage makes it more attractive for sjg, makes it more different from bottled magic, and you get to espose your system from a generic standpoint

Actually, my main concern isn't making it different from Bottle Magic; it's making it complementary to Bottle Magic, so that the two systems can coexist in the same setting while maintaining their own unique identities and not stepping on each other's toes. The most likely reference to Bottle Magic that I can think of would be a box that asks and answers the question "why would anyone use Bottled Magic when they can have this?" Right now, the only answer that I have for that is based on the game mechanics, namely the fact that Bottled Magic is an extension of regular RPM rather than an alternative to it, and thus can freely be used by Witches. I'd like to also have an answer that's less mechanics-oriented and more setting-oriented.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

And really, the most innovative thing about RPM isn't its use of Energy Accumulation; it's the "roll your own Ritual" system. The key to switching RPM over from energy-accumulation to effect-shaping lies in adjusting the "Ritual Definition and Cost" section to work according to the skill penalties paradigm of effect-shaping instead of the energy-costs paradigm of energy-accumulation. That, I think, is where the bulk of the word-count would need to go.

I agree. To me the most useful thing about RPM is not the energy accumulation model which we already had but the merging of Book/Path with Syntactic to give us modifers for making new spells easily.
Making spells in Book/Path of either type (Energy Accumulation or Effect Shaping) offers almost no support or guidelines and your very much into the "make it all up" territory. This makes it hard on GMs to use as campaign system. NO fault of Thaumatology they stuck a good variety of ideas in that book but it meant that each idea received less focus due to limited word count.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

As for Magery, I can think of two obvious answers to your question: have Magery (Alchemy) add to Formulae (the alchemical counterpart to a Ritual) instead of acting as a cap to alchemical skills (as per the advice on p.123 of Thaumatology), or have it provide less restrictive caps to the skills: Thaumatology suggests 10+(2×Magery) instead of Monster Hunter's 12+Magery. Given a choice between these options, I'd go with the former: it's already the recommended option in Thaumatology for Effect-Shaping magic, just as "Magery Caps Skills" is the recommended option for Energy Accumulating magic.

Actually, my main concern isn't making it different from Bottle Magic; it's making it complementary to Bottle Magic, so that the two systems can coexist in the same setting while maintaining their own unique identities and not stepping on each other's toes. The most likely reference to Bottle Magic that I can think of would be a box that asks and answers the question "why would anyone use Bottled Magic when they can have this?" Right now, the only answer that I have for that is based on the game mechanics, namely the fact that Bottled Magic is an extension of regular RPM rather than an alternative to it, and thus can freely be used by Witches. I'd like to also have an answer that's less mechanics-oriented and more setting-oriented.

I would go with a bonus rather then a cap. Or a time reduction as you use your magery to speed up processing.
I do not like a cap becasue it means your alchemists also need to be mages.

As to the complementary well making them use a lot of common skills means there leveraging the knowledge of one for the other and thus is more effiecnt not just in a point build but in terms of the setting.
Two different systems that have some similarity but each with their own merits and drawbacks could fit just fine in a plausible setting.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

And really, the most innovative thing about RPM isn't its use of Energy Accumulation; it's the "roll your own Ritual" system. The key to switching RPM over from energy-accumulation to effect-shaping lies in adjusting the "Ritual Definition and Cost" section to work according to the skill penalties paradigm of effect-shaping instead of the energy-costs paradigm of energy-accumulation. That, I think, is where the bulk of the word-count would need to go.

To elaborate on this, the main issue that needs to be addressed is the Greater Effects Multiplier. I'm not sure how to handle this aspect of things.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Refplace

As to the complementary well making them use a lot of common skills means there leveraging the knowledge of one for the other and thus is more effiecnt not just in a point build but in terms of the setting.

By "complementary", I don't mean "one person using both"; more like "one team using both": if the Sage practices alchemy, why would the Witch bother with Bottle Magic?

Originally Posted by Refplace

Two different systems that have some similarity but each with their own merits and drawbacks could fit just fine in a plausible setting.

Agreed; but what are their relative merits and drawbacks? That's what the hypothetical box in question would address.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

To elaborate on this, the main issue that needs to be addressed is the Greater Effects Multiplier. I'm not sure how to handle this aspect of things.

I'd just make the Greater Effects Multiplier a straight penalty to skill - either the same number (-1 for no greater effects, -3 for one, -5 for two, etc) or something else entirely (0 for none, -2 for one, -4 for two? 0/-3/-6? *shrug*).

[dataweaver]

Possibly just a flat -2 per Greater Effect. That said, the main effect of the Greater Effect Multiplier in the standard RPM system is to drastically increase the time it takes to perform the ritual; maybe instead of adding a penalty to the roll, in the effect-shaping model it should alter the base time of the ritual/formula? Say, set the base time for the ritual by counting up the Greater Effects, adding one, and looking up the Duration column on the Ritual Effect Table (MH1 p.35). So no Greater Effects means a 10-minute performance time; one Greater Effect means half an hour; two Greater Effects mean one hour; three means three hours; four means six hours; and so on. Yeah; that could work.