04-01-2008, 02:16 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
Hello Folks,
I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around the Shield Slam rules as presented in GURPS 4e. I'm only too aware that there are times when my understanding of the rules are faulty, but I am also aware that there are times when my reasoning isn't too far off the mark either. For example, I decided to try a simple "slam" encounter between two characters I called "The Wimp" and the "Linebacker". Wimp's stats are ST 9, DX 10, HP 9 versus Linebacker's stats of ST 15, DX 12, HP 18. The situation? The wimp tells the linebacker that if the linebacker fails to knock him down, that the linebacker owes him $15. If the linebacker does knock him down, that the linebacker gets paid $5. If the linebacker himself falls down, then the linebacker owes him $30. The linebacker agrees to the deal thinking that this is going to be a pushover - easy money. Statistically? The linebacker just took a sucker bet that favors the wimp. Why? Using the GURPS rules as written, and assuming that the linebacker never uses an all out attack of any kind (nor uses the added rules from Martial Arts for a Determined attack), the Wimp will win more money from the line backer in multiple slams than the linebacker will win. How is this possible? Assume that the distance for the "rush" is 3 yards. The linebacker's damage rolls will be based off of 1d6-1. The wimp's? His will be 1d6-2. Since we're talking about a situation of comparing 1d6 versus the roll of another 1d6, that becomes the classic 2d6 probability distribution problem where there are 36 possible permutations. The modified rolls however, make it more interesting. Possible Die Roll results for the wimp are: 0,0,1,2,3,4. Possible die roll results for the Linebacker are: 0,1,2,3,4,5. Compare them against each other for all possible die rolls, and we get the following results: 8 results where the Linebacker falls 16 results where the wimp falls 10 results where the Wimp must make a DX roll to avoid falling 2 results where no one falls. Since a DX of 10 has a 50/50 chance of success/failure, half of all results where a DX roll must be made, will result in "Wimp falls" and half will result in "No one falls". Thus, the new results after the dex saving rolls are concluded are: 8 results where the linebacker falls 21 results were the wimp falls 7 results where no one falls. that essentially breaks down to a 22% the linebacker falls, a 58% chance where the wimp falls, and a 30% chance where no one falls. This already presumes that the linebacker ALWAYS hits his opponent resulting in a contest of damage. Incidentally? GURPS 4e states that you must do at least 2x damage over your opponent to knock him down. My question is - how do you do 2 times the damage of zero? 2 times zero is zero. Zero times two is still zero. In any event, there are some issues involved with the Slam rules that make me unhappy, and as GM, unwilling to use the rules as written. They are: A character who weighs 200 lbs, goes up against a character who weighs 150 lbs, but is wearing 50 lbs worth of padding/armor or what have you. Functionally, they should be reasonably identical in their potential to knock each other down. GURPS does not reflect this. A character whose skill level of 18 with a shield, does not get to roll against their shield skill when slamming with a shield? What if a quarterstaff armed individual decides to cross check with his stave - he doesn't get to use his stave skill in place of DX or Brawling or Sumo Wrestling? For me - the rules as written are VERY unsatisfactory, and do not seem to reflect reality all that well. Maybe it is just me - maybe I don't understand the rules as written very well. Or maybe I do. I'm hoping I'm wrong actually. But if I'm not, I'm going to have to either go back to the original 3e rules or create my own ad hoc houserule(s) reflecting the changes I think need to be made.
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04-01-2008, 02:50 PM | #2 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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Same with a shield. Check pg. 372, under Shield Rush: "Roll against shield skill to hit". I'm not sure what you mean by 150 lbs. vs. 200 lbs. not being more or less equivalent in being able to knock each other down; their HP aren't exactly going to be off the charts. I'd say that that's a difference between, say, 12 HP and 10-11 HP. Not incredibly different. I also don't think that wearing a huge amount of heavy gear will make you any more stable; by that theory, a man put into Very Heavy encumberance by that backpack on his back would be hard to knock down. ;) I'd also add that the man in padding is less likely to be damaged by the blow. Quote:
I'm also not sure what you're complaining about towards the beginning of the thread. I'd say that a Linebacker could use his Sports/Football skill, and use that to hit someone; and he's very likely to knock down the other guy, but it's not a guarantee. That's pretty believable in my opinion.
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04-01-2008, 02:50 PM | #3 | ||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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For reference, this is covered in Martial Arts, and yes, he can use his Staff skill.
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04-01-2008, 03:11 PM | #4 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bristol
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
I think you have read the rules wrong.
See 371 for Slam It is an all out attack or Move and Attack (limited to 9) Damage is (HP * xYards move)/100 average guy with 10 moves 3 yards does 30pts down to .3 or 1d-2 The schmuck getting hit uses 10pts or .1 or 1d-3 Attacker v defender A => D = DX roll A x2> D = Auto down D x2> A = Auto Down Add a shield! Roll vs Shield Skill (which can be better than DX). And add the Shield's DB to the damage roll! Therefore a step and shunt with a shield can be made an all out attack. Based on Shield Skill +2 damage from AoA +1 to 3 from DB one step and bash = 1d-3 Even if the worst die rolled a 1 and you had a medium shield that's a result of 2 (1+4-3) The schmuck without a shield just standing there is going to give 1d-3. Best result is a 3. The schmuck takes the damage and the guy with the shield uses the shield's DR! |
04-01-2008, 07:59 PM | #5 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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As for the cross checking rules with the quarterstaff, as compared against the original basic rules, if you could list the page you found that on, I'd appreciate it :)
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04-01-2008, 08:08 PM | #6 |
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
Hal why did you rule out AoA? AoA would be exact what the lineback would do, the wimp is not going attack back and non else is either, and their is money and pride on the line why hold back?
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04-01-2008, 08:30 PM | #7 | |||||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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You see no problem with game results that let a 145 lb wimp beat a pro-linebacker one time out of five, be able to stop the pro-linebacker one time out of three, and only be knocked down one time out of 2? That, with a disparity of roughly 135 lbs between the two? That, where the wimp's basic lift is only 1/3rd that of the linebacker's? Clearly we disagree on what is "reasonable" or realistic.
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04-01-2008, 08:43 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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04-01-2008, 08:49 PM | #9 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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If you want? Suggest a "Rules as Written" scenario for the ST 9, DX 10, HP 9 wimp versus the ST 15, DX 12, HP 18 football player. I suspect that the scenario might play out like this: Wimp takes his position and chooses the wait manuever. Pro-Lineback takes his position, and waits for the "hike" command. Wimp's trigger for his wait is to attempt to bash the linebacker as he enters into his hex. Since his action precludes the Linebacker's - be becomes the new "attacker" in the contest. Does the line backer get his "+2 damage" bonus while the wimp is attacking - or does he have to wait until the wimp's turn is over before he can initiate his own bash, and use his all out attack bonus then? Me? I thought it was simpler to assume no all out attacks, no waits, and just have the linebacker hit the dude like he would any other football player in a game ;)
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04-01-2008, 11:02 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?
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The problem is, when I calculated the permutations of results, it was based solely upon the rolls of 1d6 (modified) versus the results of the other 1d6 (modified). The reason for this is based on the fact that the bash rules have two aspects to them. The first is that you have to secure a hit the usual GURPS way - that is, roll to hit, roll the defender's to defend, and if the defender fails in the defense, finally, roll the resolution. Once you're at the stage of resolving a successful hit, you are now past the point where judgement/voluntary control comes into play, but now at the resolution of the attempt itself. Cheating by the wimp for example, would require that he use a manuever that was illegal - and manuever is a skill thing. Cheating by the wimp for example, might require that he use a grapple to pull down the face guard of the helmet in an attempt to parry the incoming bash attempt. It would not however, be an issue of cheating if the 280 lb mass hit the 145 lb mass, and suddenly the 280 lb mass rebounds, and falls backwards. It would be an issue where the rules say that something unusual happened - something that in real life, statistically probably doesn't occur. So - take a look at the permutations involved. Create a chart where on one column, you have 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,4,4,5, 5,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,6 for the Linebacker's rolls - modify the rolls per the Linebacker's damage rolls, then set up a column with 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1, 2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6 and modifiy those results per the wimp's damage rolls. Compare the resulting opposing rolls with each other to determine, what, by the rules as given in GURPS 4e, is the result of the collision.
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