Newbie having a hard time with RPM

[Juca]

Hi guys, I've always used the "common" Magic presented in Gurps Magic, but after reading about Ritual Path Magic, I can say that I was caught in the trend...
After reading it some times, I've decided to try to design some spells, and, apparently, I'm doing something wrong... Let's see:

Lightning Bolt (the caster launches a burning streak of electricity for 3d damage) - The "inner" workings are the following: Create Energy (6 points), 3d damage (0 points as it is a directed attack), Greater Effect (x3) for a total of 18 points, right? But what are the traits of the attack? Range, accuracy, rof... What if I want to add "overhead", that is rated as a 30% enhancement, how it adds to the energy cost?

Second, an invisibility spell (The subject is turned invisible for the duration, and cannot carry anything) - Transform Body (8 points), adds advantage (Invisibility (affects machines, only substantial) for 56 points) and, lets say, duration of 10 minutes for 1 energy point. It is a Greater Effect, so the total cost is (8+56+1) x 3, or... 195 energy points, right? How can someone makes it a lesser effect? Can be considered a lesser effect if it is cast where no one can see the target before the effect?

Third: I'm having a hard time determining what is a lesser effect and what is a greater effect with some kinds of casting, mainly body-related. Is bestowing DR 1 to a character a greater effect? And what about DR 4? Augmentating the ST of another by 10 points, with no visible effects, is a greater effect? It is all very confusing...

Sorry if it already was asked before.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Juca

Hi guys, I've always used the "common" Magic presented in Gurps Magic, but after reading about Ritual Path Magic, I can say that I was caught in the trend...
After reading it some times, I've decided to try to design some spells, and, apparently, I'm doing something wrong... Let's see:

Hi! It is quite awesome isn't it? :D

I suggest checking this thread for some mini FAQ by PK.

Originally Posted by Juca

Lightning Bolt (the caster launches a burning streak of electricity for 3d damage) - The "inner" workings are the following: Create Energy (6 points), 3d damage (0 points as it is a directed attack), Greater Effect (x3) for a total of 18 points, right? But what are the traits of the attack? Range, accuracy, rof... What if I want to add "overhead", that is rated as a 30% enhancement, how it adds to the energy cost?

You use the same traits for a Innate Attack for stats that is: Range 10/100, Acc 3, RoF 1, Shots N/A, Rcl 1. Adding overhead would cost +8 additional energy (See the thread I posted above).

Originally Posted by Juca

Second, an invisibility spell (The subject is turned invisible for the duration, and cannot carry anything) - Transform Body (8 points), adds advantage (Invisibility (affects machines, only substantial) for 56 points) and, lets say, duration of 10 minutes for 1 energy point. It is a Greater Effect, so the total cost is (8+56+1) x 3, or... 195 energy points, right? How can someone makes it a lesser effect? Can be considered a lesser effect if it is cast where no one can see the target before the effect?

I wouldn't go about it that way (you can, it IS possible for multiple paths to the same effect as is most RPM spells). I would use Greater Destroy Energy (5) + Weight, 300 lbs (3) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) 27 energy (9x3). I would NEVER consider invisibility a lesser effect.

Originally Posted by Juca

Third: I'm having a hard time determining what is a lesser effect and what is a greater effect with some kinds of casting, mainly body-related. Is bestowing DR 1 to a character a greater effect? And what about DR 4? Augmentating the ST of another by 10 points, with no visible effects, is a greater effect? It is all very confusing...

This is hard, if your the GM use your judgement, for statistics and advantages use the "realistic" guidelines GURPS gives: so up to Basic Speed +2.00 would be a lesser effect, anything higher would be a greater one. Granting a human DR is going to almost always be a greater effect. The upcoming ritual path magic book will go into a LOT more depth on the subject.

Originally Posted by Juca

Sorry if it already was asked before.

Only silly question is the one unasked. :-)

Ghostdancer

[starslayer]

If the effect is thrown then it uses the standard rules for an innate attack.

Acc 3, Range 10/100, RoF1.

It cannot be changed. In order to grant a different sort attack grant it as an innate attack through altered traits.

Invisibility is never going to be a lesser effect by the default rules (I have a series of varient RPM 'styles' for my own fantasy campaign, some of which play with what is a lesser effect- you may have similar).

There are also generally no hard and fast rules for what is a lesser effect; but some general rules of thumb:

Up to +3 bonus can be a lesser effect (+3 to a stat, +3 to a skill, etc).

Up to -5 penalty can be a lesser effect (its easier to 'believe' someone is an incompotent idiot then believe that someone else is superhuman).

Granting +3 to the stealth skill of the person you wan to make 'invisible', -5 to the perception of those who you want to make them invisible to, and throw in some extra magical darkness for an extra -5 and you have 'effective invisibility' (net +13 to stealth quick contests), through three lesser effects.

Remember the threshold for what is a lesser effect is : Not 'impossible' to an un-involved mundane outside observer (which can be HIGHLY subjective, and is ultimately the GMs decision).

[Anaraxes]

For Invisibility, you can also consider the "Altered Traits" modifier for granting the Advantage.

Greater/Lesser is basically GM's call. It's going to be fuzzy. There's an upcoming book devoted to RPM that will probably have a lot more guidelines.

Originally Posted by MH1 p.33

The GM is the arbiter of whether an effect is “believable,” “natural,”“simple,”or “subtle” (and thus a Lesser effect). As a guideline, ask whether mundane bystander would believe that the effect could have occurred naturally.

Invisibility fails this test for me.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

For Invisibility, you can also consider the "Altered Traits" modifier for granting the Advantage.

Greater/Lesser is basically GM's call. It's going to be fuzzy. There's an upcoming book devoted to RPM that will probably have a lot more guidelines.


Invisibility fails this test for me.

Unless the world setting is plagued by inviso-lightning. Or it requires a smoke bomb charm to cast.

[PK]

Well, I saw this thread and thought I'd come answer, but everyone's nailed it as well as I could have. The only thing I want to make sure is clear is that the rules for adding enhancements . . .

Originally Posted by PK

1. How do I add enhancements to my fireballs?

This rule wasn't in MH1 because I wanted to playtest it first. Here's the short answer. First, figure out how much energy you're spending on the Damage modifier:

20 or less (most spells): Add 1 energy for every +5% or fraction thereof.

21 or more: Apply the enhancement percentage to the Damage energy cost (only -- not the cost of the whole spell!), rounding up.

You can add limitations, too, but only to bring down the cost of the enhancements; the final modifier cannot go below +0% and there is always a minimum +1 energy for adding any enhancements.

. . . definitely can be used to improve the default stats of Acc 3, Range 10/100, etc. Don't forget about the minimum +1 energy! I had people submitting rituals for the book where the damage had (e.g.) Surge, +20% and No Wounding, -50%, but with +0 energy on top of the damage instead of that minimum +1.

And I can promise that the biggest change in the upcoming GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic book is the degree to which specific spell effects are explored and explained, including the difference between Lesser and Greater effects. Every single combination of Path + effect is given its own detailed entry, with examples, limits, and (where applicable) hard numbers.

[Juballa]

I think the biggest issue I'm having with RPM is judging when it's appropriate to require Altered Traits to grant an advantage. It seems like most advantages could be expressed in terms of one of the listed Spell Effects, leading me to wonder what Altered Traits is for (advantage-wise; it's clear it's useful for ability scores & removing disads).

I initially thought in terms of Altered Traits for nearly any effect (probably because of "magic as powers"), but it's clear that isn't the author's intent. So, reversing that way of thinking, when should Altered Traits be required?

Any rules of thumb to share?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Juballa

I think the biggest issue I'm having with RPM is judging when it's appropriate to require Altered Traits to grant an advantage. It seems like most advantages could be expressed in terms of one of the listed Spell Effects, leading me to wonder what Altered Traits is for (advantage-wise; it's clear it's useful for ability scores & removing disads).

I initially thought in terms of Altered Traits for nearly any effect (probably because of "magic as powers"), but it's clear that isn't the author's intent. So, reversing that way of thinking, when should Altered Traits be required?

Any rules of thumb to share?

I run a group of six players where half of them have RPM, my GM'ing style is massive prep and then LOTS of improv. I can tell you without a doubt that RPM is the best system I've ever used. Now, off my soapbox and to your question!

The best yardstick I use simple and thus: if the effect is temporary or lasting for a short time it's probably a effect and not a altered trait. For instance you could build a spell to detect disease as either Lesser Sense Body (2) (2 energy) or Greater Strengthen Body (3) + Altered Traits, Detect (Disease) (10) + Duration, 1 hour (3) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs (3) (57 energy). Both have their uses, the first would let you tell you the reason a subject is suffering from a specific symptom while the second could be used on multiple subjects and tell you all the diseases they had regardless of if they were showing symptoms of it or not.


Ghostdancer

[Juballa]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

if the effect is temporary or lasting for a short time it's probably a effect and not a altered trait.

Given that duration is a factor that the caster pays for regardless of whether the effect is considered intrinsic to the Spell Effect or whether it's an Altered Trait, why would this affect the decision about whether an Altered Trait is required?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Juballa

Any rules of thumb to share?

My preference is that if the effect can be built without using Altered Traits, that we don't use the Altered Traits modifier. Building out a ritual with Altered Traits tends to slow the game down more so than building out a ritual during play normally does. Thereby ...