Question about Dungeon of Even More Rampant Cheating...

[Mister Ed]

OK, here's my question. Imagine I have the Dungeon of Even More Rampant Cheating than Usual in play, and have an item in play that is only usable by a specific race, using a GUAL card as a Cheat! card, per the text on the dungeon, as I have no race card in play. Now, imagine I draw and play the race needed to use that item.

The dungeon allows me to discard the GUAL and get a level. What happens if I do that? Do I get to keep the item, since it is no longer really cheating to use it? Or do I have to discard it, since the dungeon card says I must discard the "cheated" item, or does the fact that it no longer requires cheating make it not a "cheated" item anymore, and allow me to keep it?

[d-vils_wingman]

Being as how what the cards say can trump the general rules of the game, I would think that if the GUAL is treated as a Cheat! and if the dungeon says to discard the card if you lose the GUAL-cheat, then the item would be discarded even if you could use it, since the card was there by way of the GUAL-cheat and would not be grandfathered in when you went up a level by discarding the GUAL-cheat. But then, it is the Dungeon of Even More Rampant Cheating Than Usual.
Now, what I'm thinking is that you should deactivate the cheated item before combat, discard the GUAL-cheat from it, play your race (or whatever was keeping you from using it legally), and then reactivate it (also before combat - just in case).

[SmokeRulz]

If you're using the GUAL as a Cheat card, then I imagine it's going to be following all the normal rules of actual Cheat cards. Therefore, you cannot simply remove (or "deactivate" as wingman puts it) an item off of a Cheat, at all, even if it's a GUAL acting as a Cheat.

In addition, the Dungeon itself says that if you want to use it as a GUAL again, you have to discard the item attached. So no matter what, it's gone. You might as well just keep the cheated item out, even after playing the Race it needs. That's one of the downsides to using the Cheat card, once you can actually make the item legal for you, you can't remove it off the Cheat.

[Mister Ed]

I know you can't normally just discard a Cheat! card. But the dungeon rules allow you to do so for a GUAL being used as a Cheat! card to get the level, so you are already not treating it the same as a traditional Cheat! card.

What I'm trying to clarify is what happens to the item if you do that? The card rules aren't quite clear to me because they say that if you do so then you must discard the "cheated" item, but they don't make it clear (at least not in my mind) what EXACTLY constitutes a "cheated" item.

Is it any item that required "cheating" at the time it was played? In this case, I would assume that you MUST discard the item along with the GUAL if you use it get a level, even if the item is now legal.

Or is an item only considered a "cheated" item if it is no longer legally in use once the GUAL is discarded?

I can't really think of an equivalent situation using a genuine Cheat! card since you can't just discard one. I would imagine that, if there were a way for your opponent to discard a Cheat! that you have in play (and there may very well be such a way. I just can't think of it right now) whether you kept the item it was being used on would depend on whether it was legal to do so at the time you lost the Cheat! card.

[SmokeRulz]

The "cheated" item is the item attached to the Cheat. Just because you put in a Race/Class/whatever that makes the item legal does not suddenly mean it's no longer a cheated item. It is a cheated item and will remain as such until it is lost, because there's no way to get it off of the Cheat.

The difference in this case is you're using a GUAL card as a Cheat. It's going to follow all the normal rules of Cheats, but it has a bonus rule! Which is, of course, being able to stop its usage as a Cheat and use it as a GUAL again. Then the dungeon itself says that if you do this, the "cheated" item (as in: the one attached to your converted GUAL) must be discarded.

This all seems pretty straightforward to me! Wait around for MunchkinMan or Andrew (though he's probably busy) to give you a final word. :)

[Andrew Hackard]

If you decide to use the GUAL as a GUAL rather than a Cheat! surrogate, you discard the Item it's attached to even if that Item could now be legally used.

[Mister Ed]

Thanks for the clarification!

[aeronaut]

Originally Posted by SmokeRulz

That's one of the downsides to using the Cheat card, once you can actually make the item legal for you, you can't remove it off the Cheat.

On the other hand, the big advantage of using the Cheat card (or a GUAL in the aforementioned dungeon,) is that if things change and the item now can be legally used, the Cheat card still means it doesn't take up any hands or slots, etc. So a non-elf who Cheats the Bow with Ribbons and then becomes an elf can still use the bow, and two hands of other weapons. BIG advantage.

Regards,
aeronaut

[Mister Ed]

Somehow that never occurred to me. I was focused on using Cheat! to use items I couldn't normally use due to race/class/sex restrictions, but not even thinking about the hands available issue. (Though I don't know why not, as I DID realize it could be used to have more than one BIG item, which is a similar issue.)

I feel dumb now.

[Supermite]

It lets you use another Hand Item when your hands are full, OR

That is from the critical info sticky. I've seen this justification that cheat doesn't use a hand slot if you have an empty hand. That isn't the implication of what is said above. If you have spare hands, then they are in use when you have an item equipped. If that item has cheat on it, then you can equip another item, but I don't see when your hand slots are empty.