Compare power of AD&D 1st Ed Magic User vs GURPS 4th Edition Mage

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A 1st level D&D character is about a 75 point GURPS character. Have fun getting skill 15 in key spells on a 75 point GURPS mage.

For 4e, probably impossible. For 3e, fairly easy. The deciding factor is the cost of IQ.

[Jürgen Hubert]

I'd say you can create the power equivalents of D&D mages of any level in GURPS.

You can't do the reverse, but then again that was never the point of any incarnation of D&D...

[Rupert]

While I agree, I'm not even going to consider a 'conversion' of my 20th level Loremaster to GURPS. Not until next week (when varsity is on holiday) anyway. And probably not even then. I don't want to have to be bothered designing the Modular Abilities necessary, and there's no Magic equivalent to a Wish spell anyway (No, Great Wish is not really equivalent, IMO).

[GameBuddah]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember also that without the entire "alignment vs. class vs. race vs. weapon & armor restrictions" complex that comes part-and-parcel with AD&D, a GURPS wizard needs to be compared to something like an AD&D cleric/fighter/magic-user, because she can cast what AD&D would identify as cleric and magic-user spells, do so in armor, and still fight reasonably competently with a battlefield weapon. A typical wizard adventurer starting out in GURPS might know Body Control, Fire, Healing, Mind Control, and Protection & Warning spells, wear leather armor, and carry a broadsword and medium shield. And that's not even considering the fact that this no doubt high-IQ character could have 60%+ in most of the "thieving skills" for a few points.

Point-build vs. class-based is generally a hopeless comparison.

Yes, GURPS has many positives - but the fact that a typical GURPS Magic User can't hit the broadside of a barn with their lightning bolt whereas you never have to worry about rolling to hit as a MU in AD&D 1st ed certainly has many, many advantages.

Also, GURPS Mages certainly at least seem to lack a certain kaboom power that AD&D 1st ed Magic Users have with the fireball spell (multiple targets, multiple dice, etc). I one had a 5th level MU kill a dozen giants in a cave with a single fireball spell. Of course, even if GURPS did let you push fireball up beyond 3 points, you'd fall over from the fatigue cost.

GM: What do you do?
Mage: I throw a 12 die fire ball on the lich!
GM: Roll to hit.
Mage: Oh, I rolled an 11, I miss.
GM: Make a health check.
Mage: I pass out.

[zogo]

Originally Posted by GameBuddah

Also, GURPS Mages certainly at least seem to lack a certain kaboom power that AD&D 1st ed Magic Users have with the fireball spell (multiple targets, multiple dice, etc). I one had a 5th level MU kill a dozen giants in a cave with a single fireball spell. Of course, even if GURPS did let you push fireball up beyond 3 points, you'd fall over from the fatigue cost.

1. In 4th ed the limit for the missle spells is 3xMagery rather than 3.
2. Skills aren't that expensive in GURPS you can afford some Innate Attack.
3. Mages=Artillery isn't the assumption of GURPS Magic, it's true. But I can create incredibly powerful Mages in GURPS as long as I have a big point budget. Furthermore I can recreate pretty much any effect if I'm also allowed to use advantages with the -10% Magical Limitation.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Rupert

While I agree, I'm not even going to consider a 'conversion' of my 20th level Loremaster to GURPS. Not until next week (when varsity is on holiday) anyway. And probably not even then. I don't want to have to be bothered designing the Modular Abilities necessary, and there's no Magic equivalent to a Wish spell anyway (No, Great Wish is not really equivalent, IMO).

GURPS Great Wish spell is the equivalent of a Limited Wish in D&D.

Enhancing Great Wish with Cosmic however...

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by GameBuddah

Yes, GURPS has many positives - but the fact that a typical GURPS Magic User can't hit the broadside of a barn with their lightning bolt whereas you never have to worry about rolling to hit as a MU in AD&D 1st ed certainly has many, many advantages.

Also, GURPS Mages certainly at least seem to lack a certain kaboom power that AD&D 1st ed Magic Users have with the fireball spell (multiple targets, multiple dice, etc). I one had a 5th level MU kill a dozen giants in a cave with a single fireball spell. Of course, even if GURPS did let you push fireball up beyond 3 points, you'd fall over from the fatigue cost.

GM: What do you do?
Mage: I throw a 12 die fire ball on the lich!
GM: Roll to hit.
Mage: Oh, I rolled an 11, I miss.
GM: Make a health check.
Mage: I pass out.

As has been pointed out, under 4th a GURPS wizard with M3 can do more dice of damage. ie a 7d explosive fireball which costs 13 fatigue assuming a skill of 15 to 19. Powerstones are a bit more affordable (ST 5 for $595 vs ST 4 for $900) and extra fatigue for characters who regularly expend fatigue is NOT considered a Super power.

Grabbing a peek at a wizard character in the hard drive, 150 pts, HT 11 and a 5 pt Powerstone are noted.

I can throw a 13 pt fireball into that cave. 7d in GURPS hurts a lot worse than 5d in D&D.

Speaking of that cave, and 5d in D&D, what kind of D&D giants die off from the minimum damage version of FB in that game? Did you max out with 30 pts of damage? Did every single one of them fail their saves? Had they just fought a battle and hadn't healed yet? I don't see any of them dying off unless at least two of those questions are answered yes.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by GameBuddah

Yes, GURPS has many positives - but the fact that a typical GURPS Magic User can't hit the broadside of a barn with their lightning bolt whereas you never have to worry about rolling to hit as a MU in AD&D 1st ed certainly has many, many advantages.

I thought that even in AD&D1 you had to roll to hit with a few spells. You certainly do these days, though they almost all use tocuh attacks, so it's seldom a particularly hard roll (annoying when you miss with you maximised Disintegrate, though).

Also, GURPS Mages certainly at least seem to lack a certain kaboom power that AD&D 1st ed Magic Users have with the fireball spell (multiple targets, multiple dice, etc). I one had a 5th level MU kill a dozen giants in a cave with a single fireball spell. Of course, even if GURPS did let you push fireball up beyond 3 points, you'd fall over from the fatigue cost.

It does, these days. The current rules is that you can put your Magery of dice into a missile spell each turn for up to three turns.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by zogo

1. In 4th ed the limit for the missle spells is 3xMagery rather than 3.
2. Skills aren't that expensive in GURPS you can afford some Innate Attack.
3. Mages=Artillery isn't the assumption of GURPS Magic, it's true. But I can create incredibly powerful Mages in GURPS as long as I have a big point budget. Furthermore I can recreate pretty much any effect if I'm also allowed to use advantages with the -10% Magical Limitation.

I posted an example 75 pt character on this thread. He had innate attack 13 and M3, and lightning at 15. Oh, and 24 unspent points if need be. Raising that attack skill another two levels to 15 is QUITE doable.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You originally specified 'key spells', not 'key spell'. Getting a single spell up to fifteen is not hard. Getting multiple spells up to fifteen is rather harder.

The mage also has only a single skill. I don't know if I'd knee-jerk ban the character on first sight or let him in the campaign and abuse him unmercifully, as he should be.