Compare power of AD&D 1st Ed Magic User vs GURPS 4th Edition Mage

[GameBuddah]

Hi,

I'm curious has anyone compared the power level of an AD&D 1st Ed Magic User with the GURPS 4th edition spell caster. My thought has been for years that the AD&D MU would just kick a GURPS MUs butt, but I'm not so sure now that I'm playing a 1st ed AD&D MU for the first time in almost 20 years.

Thoughts?

[MIB 1473]

You'd have to decide on a point level (and disadvantage limit) for the GURPS character, of course. And there's the difficulty of AD&D characters being susceptible to death from things like house cats. The GURPS characters will vary a lot, and be better able to specialize, complicating things further.

Assuming 25 points with 25 points in disadvantages, a GURPS character might look like this:

ST 9 [-10], DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10
HP 9, FP 10, Per 10, Will 10, Speed 5.00, Move 5
Magical Aptitude 3 [35]
Disadvantages [-15]
Skills: Innate Attack (Projectile)-11 [2], Staff-10 [2], Thaumatology-12 [2].
Spells: Ignite Fire-11 [1], Shape Fire-11 [1], Fireball-13 [4], Explosive Fireball-12 [2], Detect Magic-11 [1].

That might be sufficient to kick around a 1st level AD&D mage, but again, it all depends on what assumptions you make. (A more specialized mage could be much deadlier, but I aimed for a reasonable starting character.)

[Turhan's Bey Company]

A GURPS 4e spellcaster based on how many points?

Assuming a 150 point spellcaster, optimized stats which let him get skill 15 for a point each, and a few appropriately selected spells, and further assuming that I remember AD&D correctly, I'd think the GURPS spellcaster would come out far ahead of the AD&D first level MU by most measures. He'll have a more versatile set of spells (say, a set of elemental spells leading up to a decent missile spells like Stone Missile or Fireball, a set of healing spells including Major Healing and Recover ST, and at least one other set of useful spells) and be able to cast more of them in a shorter period of time. The AD&D MU might be able to do more damage in a single spell, particularly relative to the likely number of hit points of other beginning characters, and hit automatically with that spell, but that's about the only advantage I can think of.

[Anthony]

It depends a lot on how you interpret the opposition. The general weakness of the AD&D wizard is the limited number of spells per day, and to be fair, a GURPS wizard is going to have trouble getting off more than one major spell in a fight (even a first level D&D spell is pretty powerful by GURPS standards).

GURPS mages are much more utility and support characters than magical artillery.

I'll also note that a first level AD&D fighter is probably only around 50-75 points in GURPS, so if you build your wizard on that many points, he's not going to be too impressive.

[nanoboy]

I wanted to elaborate on what has already been said. The basic GURPS magic system is built around the idea that your mage can be specialized in whatever he wants to be specialized in. You can make a combat mage; there are several ways to do this, too. He could be a defensive combat mage, centering his abilities on blocking and shielding spells. He could be a ranged offensive mage, focusing on one or two spells that can dish out damage over a range. He could be a melee combat mage, using several melee spells on his staff with which he is adept at using, or alternatively, he could have a shape-shift spell that allows him to be a tough creature for the fight-- you know, like a bear or a lion.

A mage could be built to summon creatures to do his combat for him. A mage could be an enchanter, keeping a stash of enchanted items to make combat easy for himself. A mage could be centered around supporting his friends through healing or personal enhancement spells. A mage could be a civil type mage, who uses his spells to aid agriculture and civic works. A mage could be built for a lot of things, combat and not.

Not so in DnD; for the most part, it is assumed that your mage will be in combat, and most of the spells reflect that. If you want to make a combat-oriented GURPS mage, you can make one specialized in killing DnD mages. In that case, you'd probably win every time.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Not so in DnD; for the most part, it is assumed that your mage will be in combat, and most of the spells reflect that. If you want to make a combat-oriented GURPS mage, you can make one specialized in killing DnD mages. In that case, you'd probably win every time.

That's a very hard comparison to make, since the game mechanics are so different. In any case, 1st level mages are notoriously weak in AD&D. A comparison at, say, 6th level, would be rather different.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It depends a lot on how you interpret the opposition. The general weakness of the AD&D wizard is the limited number of spells per day, and to be fair, a GURPS wizard is going to have trouble getting off more than one major spell in a fight (even a first level D&D spell is pretty powerful by GURPS standards).

Lightning can't be maintained but the typical GURPS wizard will have critically important spells at 15 for the energy cost break. With a decent skill to hit, even without aiming you can do a die of damage every turn, and have a good chance of hitting. Mind you this doesn't leave a low point character much else besides prerequisite spells and maybe a couple of utilitarian spells like Apportation. Make that a bolt every other turn to get the acc bonus with that decent skill and the wizard hits a LOT.

By comparison ANY 1st level mu/mage/wizard in any D&D incarnation is outclassed combat wise.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

By comparison ANY 1st level mu/mage/wizard in any D&D incarnation is outclassed combat wise.

A 1st level D&D character is about a 75 point GURPS character. Have fun getting skill 15 in key spells on a 75 point GURPS mage.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Have fun getting skill 15 in key spells on a 75 point GURPS mage.

[Stage Whisper] "He don't know me very well, do he? [/stage whisper]

Name: 75 pt mage
Race: Human

Attributes [40]
ST 10
DX 10
IQ 12 [40]
HT 10

HP 10
Will 12
Per 12
FP 10

Basic Lift 20
Damage 1d-2/1d

Basic Speed 5
Basic Move 5

Ground Move 5
Water Move 1

Social Background
TL: 3 [0]
Cultural Familiarities:
Languages:

Advantages [39]
Fluff to fill out the rest of the character [12]
Magery (1) [10]
Magery 0 [5]
Magery 2 -3 (2) (Air College Only) [12]

Disadvantages [-25]
Negative Fluff Disads & quirks [-25]

Skills [8]
Innate Attack (Beam) DX/E - DX+3 13 [8]

Spells [13]
Apportation IQ/H - IQ-1 11 [1]
Concussion IQ/H - IQ+1 13 [1]
Create Air IQ/H - IQ+1 13 [1]
Destroy Air IQ/H - IQ+1 13 [1]
Devitalize Air IQ/H - IQ+1 13 [1]
Lightning IQ/H - IQ+3 15 [4]
Purify Air IQ/H - IQ+1 13 [1]
Shape Air IQ/H - IQ+1 13 [1]
Sound IQ/H - IQ-1 11 [1]
Thunderclap IQ/H - IQ-1 11 [1]

Stats [40] Ads [39] Disads [-25] Quirks [0] Skills [8] Spells [13] = Total [75]

Note: I am 12 pts shy of maxing out the recomended disad limit for a 75 pt character. If the 12 points of 'fluff' isn't enough, I have another 12 pts available. You can make a well rounded character with those 24 points. Just for giggles, if I put 8 of those 24 into the two levels of Air College magery, I have FULL magery 3, and 16 pts to play with.

You ah, were saying?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A 1st level D&D character is about a 75 point GURPS character. Have fun getting skill 15 in key spells on a 75 point GURPS mage.

For 4e, probably impossible. For 3e, fairly easy. The deciding factor is the cost of IQ.