[MA] Wrestling with Weapons

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I understand WHY you want I weapon skill over 16, my point was 16+ is useful because all the defenses and techniques default to it - I was saying if Skill 20 only represented "bashing", it was useless.

Deceptive Attack, hit location, rapid strikes...

If you're fighting someone with Skill-16, they'll parry at 11- by default, and with Combat Reflexes or Extra Defense, and a retreat, you're looking at 14- without even getting unrealistic; 16- if you have a weapon with a DB.

Deceptive attack penalties to parry of 6-10 are thus pretty useful, which implies "surplus" skill of 12-20 by itself.

To be good enough to hit various targets requires "surplus" skill of up to +7 (brain) to +10 (eyes through a helm), or 8 for chinks in armor. Call it up to +8.

Rapid strikes are at -6 each; you can do a triple combination that hits you up with a -12. Let's stay within the realm of reason and only hit with the 6.

So if you take 90% chance to hit (14), add 12-20 for DA, 7-10 for hit location, and 6 more for rapid strike. So 'bashing' skill of 39 or higher can be justified just by the types of things a master might want to do; if you say that you don't want to do it all at once, you can still say that bashing skill of about Skill-30 has real practical utility in beating people up.

So I disagree that all that extra skill is inherently or intuitively grappling stuff. I don't think it's emphatically NOT that, but you can spend a lot of time hitting people with sticks without learning how to Judo Throw someone or do an arm lock with stick (and I say this as someone who has done both)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So I disagree that all that extra skill is inherently or intuitively grappling stuff. I don't think it's emphatically NOT that, but you can spend a lot of time hitting people with sticks without learning how to Judo Throw someone or do an arm lock with stick (and I say this as someone who has done both)

In real life, you can work for a whole lifestime within the field of what GURPS says is one skill (frex Economics) and only learn how to do stuff within one very small subset of the skill in GURPS terms.

All GURPS skills should realistically consist of many interrelated fields that default to each other.

The question becomes, at what point does it interfere with playability.

In my opinion, making combat skills even narrower in application exaggerates their point cost in relation to non-combat skills even more than it already is. Given that GURPS is supposed to be generic and universal, that strikes me as a bad idea.

I'm absolutely fine with unarmed grappling skills being used to do advanced grappling stuff once you've managed to get someone in an Armed Grapple. That feels realistic to me. At least allow it as an option, for the veteran grappler who has minimal competency with a baton and knows how to use it as a lever (because otherwise he is far worse when he has a lever than when he doesn't).

But not allowing even a default from weapon skill to grappling with the weapon does not seem either realistic or gamable enough to justify it. Since the typical example of full weapon skill in GURPS includes familiarity with anything from sticks through fencing swords to cleavers (with a minimal time investment if handling something for the first time), fighting in duels, skirmishes and battles, use with shield, use with another weapon in the off-hand, all possible stances and fighting positions, safely attacking hostiles while a friendly is in the way, parrying, slashing, chopping, stabbing underarm, stabbing overarm, tip slashing, grabbing the weapon by the blade to better defend and a whole host of other things at unmodified skill (not to mention all the things done with the weapon that default from it); I think it would frankly be odd to say that grappling is somehow excluded from that long list of things that weapon skill gives you training in.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Deceptive Attack, hit location, rapid strikes...

...disarm, feint, Arm Lock (staff), Choke Hold (Staff), Sweep (Staff) - all listed under standard techniques for Quarterstaff. Agreed.

So I disagree that all that extra skill is inherently or intuitively grappling stuff.

Inherently? No, of course not - bought as a technique.

I don't think it's emphatically NOT that, but you can spend a lot of time hitting people with sticks without learning how to Judo Throw someone or do an arm lock with stick (and I say this as someone who has done both)

Agreed, You can spend a lifetime studying swimming without learning the technique Life Saving; I imagine very few commercial news crew helicopter pilots without military experience have the technique No-Landing Extraction. My brother is a phenomenal shot with a rifle, but isn't so fast with a rifle breakdown drill - not because it's a separate skill, but because he is using the technique at default. You could spend 200,000 hours learning to bash with a stick without learning to grapple - definitely, or pick up the fundamentals in your first Escrima lesson.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Danukian

...disarm, feint, Arm Lock (staff), Choke Hold (Staff), Sweep (Staff) - all listed under standard techniques for Quarterstaff. Agreed.

Deceptive Attack is not a Technique. Neither is Hit Location, though Targeted Attack relates when permitted. Rapid Strike is not a Technique.

This may be a minor semantic point, but no, it's not all about the techniques. Many combat options are not techniques.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In my opinion, making combat skills even narrower in application exaggerates their point cost in relation to non-combat skills even more than it already is. Given that GURPS is supposed to be generic and universal, that strikes me as a bad idea.

Making combat skills "narrower" is not really what's happening here. The question in my mind is niche protection.

If one says that using "shortsword" gives access to all grappling skills, why wouldn't "wrestling" include tons of striking or using weapons.

It's a nonsense question. One can easily say that Shortsword includes all manner of a certain size weapon used to strike in similar ways. Which is what I think it says.

quote]I'm absolutely fine with unarmed grappling skills being used to do advanced grappling stuff once you've managed to get someone in an Armed Grapple. That feels realistic to me. At least allow it as an option, for the veteran grappler who has minimal competency with a baton and knows how to use it as a lever (because otherwise he is far worse when he has a lever than when he doesn't).[/quote]

I think you'll find my suggested example does exactly this.

But not allowing even a default from weapon skill to grappling with the weapon[/QUOTE]

I seem to recall my example said you could use Grappling or Armed Grapple, whichever was lower. I promoted a few other ideas as well.

It wouldn't be too far wrong, for example, to say that grappling with weapons defaults to the higher of a grappling skill or DX, and you can buy it up as far as your Weapon skill with a Technique. If your weapon skill is lower than your grappling skill, you use the lower one.

Many of the basic grappling skills have a DX default, even with no skill. So I don't see any issue with saying that Armed Grapple starts there, and goes as high as weapon skill. If you have grappling higher than DX, it goes from grappling skill to as high as weapon skill.

[Danukian]

No, it's not only about techniques: The ones I listed were all listed under techniques, and were all answering the OP on wrestling with weapons though.

Gurps MA Techniques: Arm Lock (Staff); Armed Grapple
(Staff); Back Strike (Staff); Choke Hold (Staff);
Disarming (Staff); Feint (Staff); Sweep (Staff).
[/i]Cinematic Techniques: Dual-Weapon Defense
(Staff); Grand Disarm (Staff); Pressure-Point
Strike (Staff); Timed Defense (Staff); Whirlwind
Attack (Staff).[/i]

[b]q:[/b ]what did the authors of GURPS Martial Arts intend to be the rule for Armed Grapple?

A: It's listed under several styles (Quarterstaff, Escrima, Masters of Defense, etc.) as defaulting to a weapon.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Danukian

A: It's listed under several styles (Quarterstaff, Escrima, Masters of Defense, etc.) as defaulting to a weapon.

I am aware of that.

What GURPS Martial Arts does not say is what skill or technique to use when one has grappled the foe with Armed Grapple and desires to perform a takedown, pin or other action defined in Actions After a Grapple.

This is not explicitly answered in MA, to my knowledge, and it is obviously something that reasonable people can disagree on.

In general, techniques do what they are listed as doing and not anything else. That would argue strongly against using the Armed Grapple technique to perform an armed takedown, armed shoving people around or armed pin.

It is true that pin is a contest of ST, not a skill roll, but it receives a bonus for the Wrestling skill, for example. Should a wrestler who is using his halberd to pin someone have a worse chance than if he was unarmed?

And for the other things, they require a roll against ST, DX or best grappling skill.

Is Armed Grapple a grappling skill? No, it is not, but it is a grappling technique.

Does using Armed Grapple transform weapon skill being used into a grappling skill? That would be consistent and logical, but it does not seem very realistic to me.

Can one roll against best grappling skill for a takedown or shoving people around even when one is using another skill to grapple? For example, when using Armed Grapple (Staff), can one roll against Wrestling to use takedown?

Does one get a bonus for Wrestling or Judo against attempts to break free when using a weapon to grapple someone?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In general, techniques do what they are listed as doing and not anything else. That would argue strongly against using the Armed Grapple technique to perform an armed takedown, armed shoving people around or armed pin.

I think this is a pretty good reading of the rules. I'd come to the same conclusion myself.

It is true that pin is a contest of ST, not a skill roll, but it receives a bonus for the Wrestling skill, for example. Should a wrestler who is using his halberd to pin someone have a worse chance than if he was unarmed?

Yes if he doesn't know how to use the weapon to unbalance his opponent as well as he knows how to use his body. No if doing so is so intuitive that it just makes everything easier.

My own experience suggests that learning how to apply the proper leverage on a weapon in order to perform joint locks, etc is tricky enough to be a Technique, but I'd probably buy it up from DX or Wrestling (or maybe Judo as well) and limit it to Weapon skill. If weapon skill is worse than DX or Wrestling...I'd say either you're out of luck, learn your way about the weapon better.

Another way to go is to say Armed Grapple defaults to Wrestling-1 to Wrestling-3 or DX-1 to DX-3 (same penalty for both). Maybe even Wrestling or DX minus 1+Reach of Weapon you're using (long weapons being trickier to handle). You might get a ST bonus equal to the Reach of the weapon you're using, maximum of your height in yards, or that plus one...too big a pole and you can't do the moves. You could improve up to a certain amount...likely limited out at Wrestling. I do note that none of this formulation depend on the actual weapon skill. I'm not sure that's wrong, but I'm also not sure it's right. Maybe weapon skill adds a bonus, like +1 at DX, +2 at DX+2, just like Wrestling adds to ST in concept if not exact magnitude. Likewise, POOR weapon skill could impose a penalty...maybe -1 at DX-1, -2 at DX-2, and -3 if you have the weapon at default.

And for the other things, they require a roll against ST, DX or best grappling skill.

Is Armed Grapple a grappling skill? No, it is not, but it is a grappling technique.

Does using Armed Grapple transform weapon skill being used into a grappling skill? That would be consistent and logical, but it does not seem very realistic to me.

One thing that does occur is that Armed Grapple represents points spent...and being a Hard Technique those first two points are several HUNDRED hours of practice in using a weapon to apply leverage. If you didn't have Wrestling (for example), those same two points would give you Wrestling at DX. So saying the first two points in the Technique give you the ability to grapple with weapons at DX is not mind-numbingly out of line.

Armed Grapple defaults right now to Weapon-2. So ANYONE can use their weapon at -2 to Grapple a foe, and improve the technique to the point where you default to Weapon skill (for 3 points).

Personally, I'd think that doing a Pin, Takedown, Lock, or whatever should probably add the length of the lever arm to ST, but probably subtract from skill in order to make the grapple in the first place (unwieldly, but powerful leverage).

[DouglasCole]

I am ashamed. From Martial Arts:

You can also apply this lock with a weapon. Default and
prerequisite skills become a weapon skill. To initiate the
lock requires a weapon parry or an Armed Grapple (p. 67).
A reach C weapon gets +1 in the Quick Contest to cause
damage; anything longer gets +2. Edged weapons can inflict
crushing or cutting damage, but you must make a DX roll
when you roll to inflict injury. Failure does thrust cutting
damage to your off hand (DR protects normally). Otherwise,
use the rules above.

Since Arm Lock defaults directly, and at no penalty, to an 'appropriate melee weapon skill,' clearly the skill includes uses for grappling.

I may have a few quibbles around the edges about the realism here, but Icelander's point from a few posts ago about the inherent breadth of the skills was bang-on. They ARE that broad.

Based on the Arm Lock precedent, and looking up Choke Hold (Melee Weapon default and Wrestling default are the same...both -3), that Melee Weapon can probably substitute at the same penalties every time you see Wrestling, but not Judo.

Arm Lock also gives +1 in the QC for reach C weapons, and +2 for longer weapons.

[Icelander]

Let's move from generalities to specifics.

Sir Michael Carragher has ST 19, DX 14 and a Talent that affects all of his combat skills at level 2. His Wrestling skill is DX+5 (i.e. 21) and his Two-Handed Sword skill is DX+5 (i.e. 21). He has Armed Grapple (Two-Handed Sword) at 21 and Choke Hold (Two-Handed Sword) at 21. He also has the Power Grappling Perk.

If he wishes to grapple a foe with his claymore, it is clear that he rolls versus his Armed Grapple skill. What happens, however, when he wishes to turn a grappled opponent around so that he is less likely to harm him?

This is Shoving People Around* and requires a roll against ST, DX or best grappling skill, whichever his highest. On the other hand, Sir Michael is not grappling the enemy with his best grappling skill, he is grappling with a technique of weapon skill**.

Due to Sir Michael's Power Grappling Perk, the highest of the three options given above is ST-based Wrestling at 26. But is he allowed to roll against Wrestling when he has a foe grappled with a weapon skill? If not, can Power Grappling affect weapon skills when they are used to grapple?

And what if Sir Michael happened to be using a halberd instead of his trusty claymore? In that case, he only has skill DX+3 (i.e. 19) and does not have Armed Grapple. So he's be rolling at 16 to initiate a grapple, but what does he roll against after that? ST roll with bonus for Power Grappling would be 24 or 22 if the bonus is counted from Polearm. ST-based Wrestling would be 26. ST-based Polearm skill would be 24. ST-based Armed Grapple (Polearm) would be 21.
´
On the other hand, if Power Grappling can't affect weapon skills and he is not allowed to use Wrestling when grappling with weapons, he's reduced to rolling straight ST or straight Polearm skill. This is dramatically worse than using just his bare hands (19 vs. 26).

*The same rule would apply for takedowns or shifting grips, as well.
**Which happens to be at the same level, but this is less important than you'd think.