Aeroduel, and Boat Wars (Hydroduel?) in 6th?

[thudthwacker]

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Back on topic for me: In the pre-4th edition incarnations of the game, boats and airplanes and tanks (oh my!) were all separate purchases and totally optional, in that in order to use them you had to buy a separate product. I believe that this is how they should be handled in 6th edition; I further think they ought to be separate games that are entirely compatible with Car Wars and they should use their own settings, though the rules in them should be drop-in compatible with the base Car Wars game.

If there is a Great Big Book Of Everything Car Wars, then they should be included.

I concur on all points. Any attempt to force planes, boats, and tanks into the main game (by futzing inappropriately with the stats/abilities/weapons on either side -- eg, fudging actual aircraft speeds so they match car speeds) would be bad. But putting them in separate games with compatible rules will work. That way, you'll have yet more entertaining games and, if you really do want to see if your all-ace Division 30 autodueling team can take down a Sherman tank, you can let 'em try. (A running gunfight down a river between a smuggler on a speedboat and a couple of FBI cruisers could be fun, too.)

Separate games would be better; if SJG is absolutely only doing a single big-box Super Cool Edition, put 'em in with disclaimers ("Note: these tanks will pulp your best cars -- it's just the way things are. You have been warned.")

[GrauGeist]

Originally Posted by Pentalarc

Micromanaging of the rules to take away advantages rather than letting players find ways to counter them or bringing in new equipment to counter them ruined car wars. (Changing the rules for the oil/ice combo or ramplates simply because they had become too popular, etc.)

Yes, the ram plate nerf was pretty dumb - ram plates made the car into a 1-and-a-half-shot wonder. Over time, a properly-armed car can dish out more damage than a Ram car.

[GrauGeist]

Originally Posted by Angrytubist

Anyhow I guess what I'm asking is that if you don't mind the small counters, what's wrong with holding a fixed-wing microplanes top speed to 175-225 mph. this would mean cruising at 125-150 slightly faster than the top speed of the average dueling car.

It will have to be cost-balanced, to get the microplane price down to, say, $30k to be competitive with a D30 car of some sort.

[Angrytubist]

Yes, which along with ease-of-use is why I want the design rules to be more consistent, (i.e. these things would use the same plants and weapons (for the most part)). If you're buying pretty much the same parts, your price will be similar. Then you just need to put a value on "Flight" vs. "wheels" for your airframe. I figure boats should have similar price points to cars anyway, though an equivalent boat would probably be a bit slower and heavier armed, armored than the car.

[GrauGeist]

Originally Posted by Angrytubist

Yes, which along with ease-of-use is why I want the design rules to be more consistent, (i.e. these things would use the same plants and weapons (for the most part)). If you're buying pretty much the same parts, your price will be similar. Then you just need to put a value on "Flight" vs. "wheels" for your airframe. I figure boats should have similar price points to cars anyway, though an equivalent boat would probably be a bit slower and heavier armed, armored than the car.

I'm OK with that. A lot of boat use Chevy small blocks, while boxer engines are popular for smaller airplanes.

Thing is, even a pretty slick car with a 230 hp engine tops out at 150 mph, but that same engine will go well over 260 mph.

Reference points are:
- 3.6l Fuji Heavy Industries EG33 flat-six
- Subaru SVX coupe (0.29 Cd)
- Glasair 1RG (19+' long / 24+' wingspan = 1.25" long x 1.5" wide).

Biggest problem is price - a new SVX was $40k. A new build plane is twice that.

[Angrytubist]

True, though lets say most vehicles in Car Wars are manufactured in "small" factories with output in the 100's per year at most.If it takes as much hand-work to build and armor a car as it does a plane your price discrepancy could believably be much less.

I submit that the same engine in a Car Wars plane should give roughly 50-75 mph over a car in top speed, and some extra acceleration as well. We could blame the divergence from physics on the weight of armor, and the need to keep everything on the table.

I also submit that in general a micro-plane should be faster and lighter armed/armored than a car.

[GrauGeist]

Originally Posted by Angrytubist

True, though lets say most vehicles in Car Wars are manufactured in "small" factories with output in the 100's per year at most.If it takes as much hand-work to build and armor a car as it does a plane your price discrepancy could believably be much less.

I submit that the same engine in a Car Wars plane should give roughly 50-75 mph over a car in top speed, and some extra acceleration as well. We could blame the divergence from physics on the weight of armor, and the need to keep everything on the table.

I also submit that in general a micro-plane should be faster and lighter armed/armored than a car.

The SVX sold 25k cars globally over it's entire production run - not a big seller. After year 1, annual production was small 1000s, and the EG33 engines were all hand-built. To capture the small volume, you might bump the sticker from $40k to $60k or even $65k. Closer to the plane, but still $15 to $20k cheaper.

Both of the car and plane start unarmored. So add $20k in armor & weapons to each, meaning the plane ends up more lightly armed and armored, due to lighter-weight armor materials.

But a mere 50-75 mph speed increase? Armoring the SVX might drop the top speed from 150 mph down to 130 mph, while the plane might drop from 260 mph down to 230 mph - you're probably still going to see a 100 mph top speed advantage for the plane.

The biggest issue will be staying within the footprint of the arena. In general, the plane will likely sidemount everything and "fight" like an AC-130, doing pylon turns around the ground target(s).

[Angrytubist]

Sidemount and pylon turns probably would be the best way to attack ground targets check out AC-130 gunsight video to find out more.

I completely agree with you about the physics aspect of it though 200-225 mph sounds like a reasonable number. you should be able to keep that on a "Standard" 6' by 4' topper.

Though in 3x scale you'd probably want to stick to choppers on a table that size.

[Angrytubist]

I think you would probably see the price of labor (value of human life) go down post-apocalypse. and the about of industrial capacity per capita go up. (assuming food shortages instead of physical destruction). Also decentralization would require increased reliance on cnc machining and 3d printing options for parts production. In general also the Car Wars dollar is much stronger than the RL dollar a 1980's chevy camaro was under 20,000. I have no idea what small planes cost in the 1980's but I'd probably shoot for a plane costing 1.5x as much as an equivalent car rather than 2x.

[GrauGeist]

Originally Posted by Angrytubist

I think you would probably see the price of labor (value of human life) go down post-apocalypse. and the about of industrial capacity per capita go up. Also decentralization would require increased reliance on cnc machining and 3d printing options for parts production.

In general also the Car Wars dollar is much stronger than the RL dollar a 1980's chevy camaro was under 20,000.

I have no idea what small planes cost in the 1980's but I'd probably shoot for a plane costing 1.5x as much as an equivalent car rather than 2x.

Those are OK assumptions - tho assuming 2010+ 3-D printing is probably a bit of a stretch.

The price is a relative scalar, so it's OK.

After volume adjustment, armor, etc. the ratio is closer to 1.5x.