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Old 05-03-2021, 04:04 PM   #51
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
While I don't think Doug is working on that just this minute, he has announced that he will be working on the long overdue GURPS-in-space game, apparently inspired heavily by Stargate and X-Com.
Heart warmed a little! Thanks!
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:10 PM   #52
Willy
 
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Please be aware that I am not talking about conventions. I am talking about real and estimated sales numbers, in both units and dollars, seen by the major players in the games industry. That is, I'm quite literally ignoring what gamers are saying and looking at the business picture.
If you look at the business picture than it should be clear that every last Kickstarter campaign was a success, so the base and the market are still here, and according to SJG own published sales numbers several GURPS products are still under the 10 most often saled, not as much as for example munchkin of course, while other bread and butter products are slowly loosing ground. GURPS is a long term selling product which always sells. Not much as you and I would like but it is still making a + and writes no red numbers. Still you have more and newer numbers so for a level discussion, the need to be open available.

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
not disagreeing with you, but I am curious: is this from market data as well? Is this scariness (etc) happening on these forums? Reddit? Game stores?
That would be of interest for me too, I found a lot of complains about GURPS but that seems to break down the problem into a much to simple solution. I never read Iīm scared to use GURPS, and this forum is quite helpful, Iīve never seen a newbie dissed because he asked something, the only thing is the answer to his question can go astray in the finer details of fan discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Please try to understand that "the old base" isn't supporting GURPS anyway. It is, however, earning a reputation for being scary to newcomers who might want something a little different from what "the old base" wants.
A lot of the buyers at Kickstarter are the old base. Itīs just a hen and egg problem, with no pleasant solution, later more about it.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
aren't something SJ Games can wish into existence. We are simply too small for that. Free stuff has the same problem. Ultimately, GURPS is on a shoestring budget because the old player base isn't spending enough money to justify better, so what little we have to spend has to go to products that earn money. If we divert it to freebies and chasing down translators, we'll have no new releases and the game will acquire a reputation as "dead."
Hen and egg again, no more products no sales and vice versa. Ok here are some suggestions that may help. In earlier times SJG had a official subsite for 3rd Ed fan made PCs/NPCs, and links to good fansites, among else. If you make up such a portal again a lot of players would be happy to post there favourite self created stuff there, same goes for videos and other content. Yes that would make a bit work to curate it, but you need more content, a lot of it. The last time I looked at facebook and other medias SJG presentation the GURPS stuff was month old, with a break from the occasional kickstarter. I know well that there is a resources page in the forum, but why in gods name do you need this detour, a lot of people never use the forum. Just put it on the GURPS subsite of SJG.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
something to take up with Pegasus Spiele, not SJ Games. Nobody at SJ Games understands German or lives in Germany and understands the German games market; that's a job for a German company.
Most interesting, years ago, so donīt ask me after the name of the person, I looted Pegasus Spiele for some of the last german books, they told me you werenīt interested in further cooperation. Donīt know which site is true, but GURPS had a small and working fan base here.

Anyway I would have offered long ago to translate GURPS Ultra lite for free, since covid there is enough time. The BIG problem is germany had several spelling reforms after me leaving school, and my german grammar is not much better than my english one now, ok that is a exaggaration, but the core is sadly right.

What about VTT? By the way you should add paymant possibilities, at least paysafe would be a good add to the actual possibilitys, a good deal of people donīt like pr use normally the given options.

Anyway there is a need for doing something, what better should work, because if not GURPS is very dead.

I search since month the web for GURPS ideas, links etc and a whole bunch of sites is down, some recently, and often a reason for this is no new stuff, not enough support by SJG and all that. To make it clear I donīt found a newly created Fansite which was newer than a year, but a lot of shutdown old ones.

Last edited by Willy; 05-03-2021 at 04:17 PM. Reason: added quote
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:26 PM   #53
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

If I understand correctly, Kromm is literally the only person left doing GURPS full-time. He doesn't have time to edit submissions, run fan sites, search for links, translate games into foreign languages, and so on. Fan pages are literally that; pages run by fans. If the base is dropping, the sites will go away due to lack of support. If the fan base wants GURPS to prosper (and I, for one, do very much want that), then they need to promote it, link sites, volunteer to run tournaments, translate documents for fans, and support the game actively in their communities. If we all wait for GURPS to publish only the number-crunchy wildest dream supplements, we will be left without a game at all.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:50 PM   #54
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Willy View Post
That would be of interest for me too, I found a lot of complains about GURPS but that seems to break down the problem into a much to simple solution. I never read Iīm scared to use GURPS, and this forum is quite helpful, Iīve never seen a newbie dissed because he asked something, the only thing is the answer to his question can go astray in the finer details of fan discussion.
My basic expectation is that some potential fan reads a forum and sees a bunch of arguments about handgun bore size or spiderman's punch strength or the exact point cost of some esoteric resurrection limitation...and gets totally turned off. Or they say "hey, we could play this GURPS thing" and some other gamer says "no, that's way too complicated" or "no, that's only for playing decepticons-vs-monty-python-in-an-anime-setting" or whatnot...and get turned off.

But, I'm actually really interested in hear Kromm's take on this, because his ear is to the ground.

Last edited by kenclary; 05-03-2021 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 05-03-2021, 05:52 PM   #55
Calvin
 
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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And by such a large margin that gaining even 1-2% of the biggest kid's market share would make our game at least 10-20 times more profitable.
I never thought of it this way. My gripe with DFRPG was never that it made anything simpler, but that it was Dungeon Fantasy. I've played my fair share of RPG systems and I find GURPS does firearm combat better than most. But if people are already primed to think of RPGs as being inherently fantasy then I can see why you'd go in the direction of DFRPG.

That said, there has been something of a resurgence with modern tactics games like Doorkickers, etc. So while it's possible there's a market for something like a DFRPG for High or Ultra tech, I can see why the potential market wouldn't be anywhere near as large as Dungeon Fantasy.
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Old 05-03-2021, 06:25 PM   #56
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
Is this scariness (etc) happening on these forums? Reddit? Game stores?
Yes. Absolutely yes. 100% yes.

Go to the GURPS Discord. Almost every conversation ON THE NEWCOMER'S CHANNEL is dominated by a few ever-present denizens talking about finding just the right combination of advantages, enhancements, and limitations to reproduce power X. Or else it's about how the regular magic system is crap and broken. The main GURPS-1 and GURPS-2 channels are even worse.

The very structure of the Discord channels shows up the problem well. If you're a newcomer, go play in this sectioned off area where Real GURPS won't scare you. You can come out when you've grown a thick enough skin.

Reddit and RPG.net seems a little more open to discussion of GURPS as a game, but r/GURPS posters seem very critical of GURPS in general, and the insane RPG.net mods will ban you at the slightest sign that you don't agree with their politics as expressed in your gaming. (Got evil orcs in your game? Say so and you're banned for being a racist. I'm not kidding.)

Back a number of years ago, I remember playing GURPS at a game store, and people gave you two looks. The first one was awe: you can wrap your head around GURPS? The second was distaste: why would you do that in GURPS when you can do it Simple System X?

These discussions on this forum always end up with the same voices declaring that they know why SJG is getting GURPS wrong, and if only they'd do this one thing that they happen to really want them to do, everything would turn around. Well, forget about magic products and lateral strategies; here's what will REALLY help GURPS: go out and play it. A lot. The more it's seen as a FUN GAME, rather than a complicated source of math and rules-arguments, the more people will be interested in it.

Stop telling people why you think the magic system is broken. Stop telling people that Powers (or Martial Arts, or Thaumatology) is kind of really the third book in the Basic Set that everyone really should buy. Stop telling people who express interest in GURPS to buy ten thousand books just in case they're interested in one little part of it.

And for goodness sake, everyone please stop pretending you're an expert on everything who knows where GURPS has it wrong.

DO assume that new players are only using the Basic Set until they tell you otherwise. DO suggest supplements when interested persons clearly want just about everything that supplement provides, not just when one or two paragraphs might answer one of their specific questions. DO answer questions of "How do I convert this from D&D" with answers that find the GURPS way of doing the same thing, rather than trying to program GURPS to reproduce D&D's mechanics.

I do hope people take my comments here the right way. I'm not trying to hurl accusations, but what Kromm has said above is very, very much what I've been seeing in GURPS discussions for years, and it's nice to know that I'm not just a grumpy old gamer who's out of touch with the new GURPS hotness.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:11 PM   #57
DouglasCole
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
While I don't think Doug is working on that just this minute, he has announced that he will be working on the long overdue GURPS-in-space game, apparently inspired heavily by Stargate and X-Com.
Entirely correct. Stargate SG-1, X-Com, but also a bit of Old Man's War (but not the sequels...though I enjoyed them, I liked OMW as a jumping off point for the Mission X: Alien Menace game rather than deeper into the book series).

My plan is:

Delvers to Grow (launches Friday)


Nordlondr Ovinabokin (Nordlond Bestiary, hopefully in folks' hands by the end of 2021)

Mission X (um...sometime in 2022)

I will have other things that are not-GURPS or Powered by GURPS adjacent (some of my character collections volumes converted to Delvers to Grow, maybe a few other things, but not crowdfunded) in between now and then because bills must be paid! But definitely Mission X is The Big Thing for 2022.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:15 PM   #58
Willy
 
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Reddit and RPG.net seems a little more open to discussion of GURPS as a game, but r/GURPS posters seem very critical of GURPS in general, and the insane RPG.net mods will ban you at the slightest sign that you don't agree with their politics as expressed in your gaming. (Got evil orcs in your game? Say so and you're banned for being a racist. I'm not kidding.)
I use only discord and it seems quite civil to me, I didnīt know that Reddit and RPG net were so bad.

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Well, forget about magic products and lateral strategies; here's what will REALLY help GURPS: go out and play it. A lot. The more it's seen as a FUN GAME, rather than a complicated source of math and rules-arguments, the more people will be interested in it.
Thatīs a part which I can always sign, playing GURPS IS fun.


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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
I do hope people take my comments here the right way. I'm not trying to hurl accusations, but what Kromm has said above is very, very much what I've been seeing in GURPS discussions for years, and it's nice to know that I'm not just a grumpy old gamer who's out of touch with the new GURPS hotness.
Definitely not feeling accused, while I canīt agree in all your positions, we are grown up and should behave accordingly. A discussion is only than a discussion if people are allowed and welcomed to have different opinions.

Because all members in this forum have something in common, we all enjoy playing GURPS and want it to stay healthy for a long time, there may be differences about the right way but the goal is clear.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
That said, there has been something of a resurgence with modern tactics games like Doorkickers, etc. So while it's possible there's a market for something like a DFRPG for High or Ultra tech, I can see why the potential market wouldn't be anywhere near as large as Dungeon Fantasy.
I love to play tactics games on my computer, and would take a good look at a GURPS version. But you are right, it would look pale for most players compared to the good old hack and slash fantasy.
Question there was a tactical shooting which I didnīt own, has it ideas for this, or can it be used as a base for such a product ?
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:17 PM   #59
DouglasCole
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
I've played my fair share of RPG systems and I find GURPS does firearm combat better than most.
SJG has graciously allowed me permission to write a complete, stand-alone Powered by GURPS product in Mission X which will (finally!) put the ballistics into Gaming Ballistic.

If that goes nutso and sees 1,500 or 2,000 backers that will tell us something. If it goes bonkers and sees 4,000 (slightly larger than TFT) that will say even more.

If it goes "thud" and gets my usual 500-600, that will tell us something too [1].

So we'll see!


[1] For a new, full game, "only" my usual sales numbers will not indicate a break-out of the fantasy genre. It will be "The same 500-650 people like Doug, but that's that." That's not "there's clearly a hole that's been identified that hard work and good ideas will fill!" That's "GB is a 600-backer company at best."
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 05-03-2021 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:56 PM   #60
maximara
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
My basic expectation is that some potential fan reads a forum and sees a bunch of arguments about handgun bore size or spiderman's punch strength or the exact point cost of some esoteric resurrection limitation...and gets totally turned off. Or they say "hey, we could play this GURPS thing" and some other gamer says "no, that's way too complicated" or "no, that's only for playing decepticons-vs-monty-python-in-an-anime-setting" or whatnot...and get turned off.

But, I'm actually really interested in hear Kromm's take on this, because his ear is to the ground.
I played Champions/Hero back in the day and compared to that even with Supers messing up Classic GURPS was far saner and less work. I will grant you there are places in GURPS that could do with a little work (organization of the spell list in the Basic Set for example).

The thing is one must ask why does GURPS have this reputation for being complicated? Is it really the rules or perhaps they way they are organized?
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