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Old 02-11-2011, 10:24 AM   #61
Malenfant
 
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
About 1/3 combat description to 2/3s character traits and gear, by page count.

Though even the character traits and gear goes into substantial detail on how real-world people train on real-world things, so I'd say another half of the GURPS-specific portions would still be usefull to you. Total 2/3 of the book useful to non-GURPS people, I guess?
OK, thanks. I think at this stage, I'm veering more towards picking it up than not. :)
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:26 AM   #62
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by pieclone View Post
I take it that Parker removing the mag from his M1911 clone with his teeth is classified as a "one-handed drill"?
Yes, part of it. They show several methods that fall under that perk.

PS: Neither of the chaps is using an "M1911 clone". They have Colt .45 Government MK IV Series 70 pistols, which are "Colt M1911A1s" in all but name.

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Last edited by HANS; 02-11-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:33 AM   #63
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
What situations is Guns Sport used in,
Typical static target shooting, skeet or trap shooting, shooting matches from Olympic to IPSC, etc. -- all shooting that is heavily regulated for sports and safety reason and does not work in any way how combat does.

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
and in what situations would Guns Sport suffer the -3 penalty for defaulting to Guns?
Whenever somebody engages in actual combat without having Guns. For example, myself. I have only Guns Sports. I shoot a lot, and I compete both nationally and internationally (with mixed results ;) ). However, I have not received training that would allow me to engage in combat without making a (eventually, dead) fool of myself.

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
the style description mentions that stylists are taught to disregard cover. Is this meant to be represented by the lack of the Barricade Tactics perk in the Practical Sports Shooting Style?!
Partially. Sports shooters cannot acquire Barricade Tactics without having received training to that effect -- which probably means they have Guns, not Guns Sport, and certainly means they are engaged in realistic combat training, not in sports shooting.

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Old 02-11-2011, 10:33 AM   #64
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

The mission of Tactical Shooting is to describe realistic firearms handling and tactics in terms of mindset, training, and execution – with a double shot of myth-debunking and distinguishing cinema from reality. The rules and stats are almost ignorable from that perspective . . . although they will at times be obtrusive because we are talking about a GURPS rulebook, not a systemless work. All told, though, everything said about professional shooters, their tactics, and their gear is useful advice to anyone interested in the subject matter. Whether it's useful gaming advice depends on the resolution of your RPG of choice; the way GURPS counts off time by the second, distance by the step, and combat conditions by the individual +1 makes this treatment ideal for it, but perhaps less so for other RPGs.
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:35 AM   #65
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
About 1/3 combat description to 2/3s character traits and gear, by page count.

Though even the character traits and gear goes into substantial detail on how real-world people train on real-world things, so I'd say another half of the GURPS-specific portions would still be usefull to you. Total 2/3 of the book useful to non-GURPS people, I guess?
I'd agree with this assessment, though I might rate the final fraction at more 4/5, due to all of the little bits of info stuffed into every possible crack. Although this is a very crunchy book, Hans (a gun enthusiast if there ever was one!) has peppered every ounce of this book with real-world info, advice, and stories. The gun writeups don't just include stats -- they include history, trivia, and more. The CCP perk not only includes game rules, but a discussion of how such permits vary between specific states and nations. The rules for clearing rooms aren't just arrows on a hex map -- they're a second-by-second breakdown of what kind of things the soldier/officer/PC is seeing. It's all very flavorful, and very realistic.
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:59 AM   #66
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

I've got a little rules-y concern. It's the 'Longarm Shooting Stances' section on p. 12-13, part of the larger 'Shooting Stances' subchapter.

Now, it seems logical that firing a longarm with one hand would usually also deprive you of the opportunity to use the stock properly. The rules, however, do not state how the ST increase for using a longarm one-handed interacts with the multiplier for not holding the stock against your shoulder.

During playtest I simply assumed that the 'One Handed Shooting of Longarms' rules superseded the rules for not using the stock. There were three listed stances for longarms and Occam's Razor indicated that they would probably be mutually exclusive. In fact, the fact that you can change stances once per turn as a free action makes it explicit that you can only be in one stance at each time.

Now, however, I see that this doesn't quite work. There are several concerns here:

a) It seems like it would be possible to shoot at least some longarms one-handed and still rest the stock on the shoulder*. Whether this would be any more stable than a more 'pistol-like' firing stance is something I just don't know. In any event, treating the modifiers for one-handed use and stockless use as cumulative here seems rather harsh. For one thing, with the rules interpreted that way, a wounded soldier laying down covering fire with his M4 carbine with one hand needs ST 17 (ST 9 x 1.5 x 1.2 (rounded up)) just to be able to do it without placing the stock on his shoulder. Thinking about it, though, maybe that is realistic enough. If he wants to do it with less ST, he can use Hip Shooting for a ST 11 (ST 9 x 1.5 x0.8 (rounded up)).

b) Shooting a longarm two handed with the stock retracted or without having the chance to use the stock imposes a -1 penalty to Acc and +1 to Rcl. Shooting the same weapon one-handed would seem to avoid those penalties. If the penalties for one-handed use and for stockless use are not cumulative, it could be better for a strong shooter to fire his stockless cruiser shotgun one-handed than it would be for him to hold it in a proper two-handed firing stance.
That seems very wrong. The recoil of a weapon firing one-handed should never be easier to manage the the recoil of the same weapon, fired in the same way, but simply without using the other hand for support. At the very least, the Rcl should be the same, if not worse.

c) On the other hand, if we take the (perhaps) reasonable position that all modifiers are cumulative unless otherwise specified, we reach the counter-intuitive conclusion that the listed modifiers for One-Handed Shooting rarely, if ever, apply without modification. Either the ST requirements there are modified again for stockless shooting or they are multiplied for Hip Shooting**. Only when using a sling or somehow firing one-handed, but still managing to assume a proper firing stance with the stock against your shoulder, do you use the rules as written.

All in all, I lean toward the view that modifiers for shooting without a stock or hip shooting should be cumulative with One-Handed Shooting of Longarms. This seems far more realistic than the alternative, where strong characters could get higher Acc scores and lower Rcl by using their folding stock longarms with one hand than rather than two.

I do think a sentence to that effect would make this section far easier to understand. Given the fact that switching between stances can only be done once per turn, it is easy to assume that you can only ever be in one stance at a time. And that would lead to the Murphy above.

*I imagine that wedging the stock between the firing arm and the body or just placing the stock on the stomach or hip would be more comfortable. Perhaps that counts as stocked shooting and it is only if someone wants to shoot one-handed with the arm extended that the ST penalties from stockless shooting should count in addition to the one-handed penalties. Or, of course, this could count as Hip Shooting, which I believe it should.
**From a realism point of view, though, it seems very realistic to brace a gun in the ways given there when you are trying to fire a longarm one-handed.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:34 AM   #67
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

I guess what I was looking for was a more definitive answer on what situations which skill (Guns Sport or regular Guns) should be used in..

What's considered combat? Only while you're being shot at? Or when there's a possibility of being shot at? Or is it the target type that matters? Do you roll against Guns only if it's a live target? While I can see a Sports Guns practitioner may have some difficulties handling being shot at, or even in "danger", I have a harder time understanding why a person with regular Guns skill would be worse at hitting a paper target. Would a sports champion roll against Guns Sport if he/she were taking a shot at a live target that was so far away there was no immediate danger of return fire? Would a sniper, given a Guns skill level equal to a competitor's Sport Guns level, lose a shooting competition shooting at paper targets simply because it wasn't a combat situation?

My apologies if these seem nit-picky questions, but I've experience situations where a player wants to play a character with Guns skill, but without having any other "combat" training, and I would like to be able to explain to he/she what exactly it is he/she is getting with the Sport Guns, which is what I usually suggest they buy, instead of Combat Guns.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:54 AM   #68
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
Would a sniper, given a Guns skill level equal to a competitor's Sport Guns level, lose a shooting competition shooting at paper targets simply because it wasn't a combat situation?
This isn't that implausible. If we consider skill points as the time spent training a sniper will have spent a lot of that time training on aspects other than simply hitting stationary targets and thus will be at a disadvantage when he enters a competition against somebody who has trained just as much at competition shooting.
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:07 PM   #69
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
This isn't that implausible. If we consider skill points as the time spent training a sniper will have spent a lot of that time training on aspects other than simply hitting stationary targets and thus will be at a disadvantage when he enters a competition against somebody who has trained just as much at competition shooting.
IIRC, part of the difference is also following the rules of the sport. He might be penalized for a habit he picked up in the military.
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:12 PM   #70
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
Yes, part of it. They show several methods that fall under that perk.

PS: Neither of the chaps is using an "M1911 clone". They have Colt .45 Government MK IV Series 70 pistols, which are "Colt M1911A1s" in all but name.

Cheers

HANS
I figured they were and nearly referred to them as M1991 Series 70s but a) I wasn't sure I was correct so edited before posting and b) McQuarrie's commentary mentions in passing that they were 9mm conversions. I wasn't sure (having not heard it for a while now) as to whether they were Hollywood black-firing adaptions or knock-offs. By the sounds of things it's the former.

Just a quick question for you as well Hans - as someone who cannot gain access to handguns thanks to living in the UK can you answer me a question w/r/t rear sight mountings?

One of the methods I seem to remember being used in the Way of the Gun was a single hand reload using the rear sights against the belt to pull back the slide. I've been looking for some time at a fighting system : C2 (Core Combatives) run by a fellow named Mick Coup and he advocates using the rear sights of a handgun as the impact point when using a firearm as a striking implement (this is when curving round to strike the side of an oppenent's head, bypassing a "hands up" defensive posture, not straight on).

I understand your USP9 had an issue a while back where the rear sights came away from the weapon and was wondering if you would say this would be a likely occurence if using it to strike or as a reloading aid? I'm trying to model C2 as a combined Tactical Shooting/Martial Arts style and I'm just wondering whether you'd be risking putting the weapon out of commission using this technique.
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