Continuous Mana and Very High Mana rules (FP restoration, criticals)

[Plane]

from Thaumatology 58:

Other effects related to mana level – harm to mana dependent
creatures, FP recovery rates, critical failure rules, etc. – might cut in at specific thresholds or develop gradually across the range where numeric variation is significant

If using the 'develop gradually' idea rather than the 'cut in at specific' I'm trying to think of how you could do that point-by-point.

"Very high" is +8 or higher. Very High has the benefit of getting back 100% of any FP you spent the second after you cast a spell.

I was thinking on the tiered system (rated by penalty or bonus to spellcasting) that it could work like a % return per level.

So say if you had 100% return at +10 to skill, you could do 10% FP returned per +1 of the CMana level?

That might also be used to alter the time it takes for the FP to flow back. If 100% return happens in 1 second, maybe 90% return happens in 2 seconds, 80% return in 3 seconds, etc? Perhaps with some rule like a mage who spends concentrates (instead of a free action) is more competent at regaining the FP that Very High Mana rules return normally as a free action?

For there to be SOME of that benefit (but not all) to non-mages, the suggested -6 penalty might be applied.

For critical failure rules, since normal failures are meant to be critical when cast in Very High, to gradually implement that.

Like maybe it could somehow be related to MOF in respect to the levels? Like say with a +10 level, MoS 0 or above will be critical, with +9 it has to be MoS1+, with +8 only MoF2+ is crit, etc. Something like "add the local mana bonus to your MoF, if the result is X or more, it's crit" ?

For FP recovery rates I'm not 100% sure what that refers to (unless it's that next-second thing mentioned previously) unless it might be referring to the rate at which Manatones get back energy.

For traveling between mana zones over time (different rates) it might be good to keep track of fractional energy regained, especially since Continuous gives the opportunity for a more gradual shift between mana levels.

[Gef]

Hi Plane, I'm only answering this because I know how frustrating it is to get no replies (like here), but honestly, the points you raise imply extra book-keeping, and that requires justification. What kind of mana environment do you actually envision?

In fantasy games I've run, because mana level affects the VALUE of Magery even though COST stays the same, I've stuck with normal mana as the campaign baseline, with small pockets of different mana, and if I ever imagined a continuum at the border of such an area, it would be a matter of yards and not worth tracking.

High mana reduces the value of Magery Zero, because anyone can cast spells. In a pocket of high mana, that guy who's great on theory and low on talent can be a professor of magic, so it's a good place for a college.

Very High Mana on the other hand raises the value of Magery, especially for quick enchantment, because circles of enchanters don't need to rest between workings, meaning their output couls approximately double, depending how what size of Energy Reserve is normal for your campaign.

Can I infer you assume that mana level varies gradually, such that there's a locus of VHM at Magic City, and it falls off to Normal Mana over 100 miles, so that various other cities all have different levels, and you plan to play up the commercial and strategic significance? Then you only need to calculate once per city.

>So say if you had 100% return at +10 to skill, you could do 10% FP returned per +1 of the CMana level?

I think I'd go with 20% per +1, so at +5 or less, no FP regeneration. However, I'd still allow the +5 bonus to affect the Recover Energy spell, so a wizard who knows that spell would recover faster than in normal mana.

For crit fail results, may I suggest a re-roll against spell skill, using the current modifier as a penalty. For instance, in a +6 zone, you fail, so roll at spell skill -6, and if you succeed, you manage to "dissipate the energies harmlessly" and avoid disaster. This roll is not allowed in full VHM, only with modifiers from 1 to 9. The idea for this mechanic is mainly to keep it simple while involving the effect, but the odds don't follow a straightforward progression because they depend on the caster's skill. If your campaign's wizards mostly have Magery 10 and genius IQ, then they'll love those +9 regions just outside a locus of power, because they'll have most of the benefit oand hardly any of the risk.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gef

I think I'd go with 20% per +1, so at +5 or less, no FP regeneration. However, I'd still allow the +5 bonus to affect the Recover Energy spell, so a wizard who knows that spell would recover faster than in normal mana.

What about inverse between Very Low Mana where it costs 1 extra FP at -10?

[Gef]

There's no granularity there. You either deal with fractions, or just say it kicks in around -8. And of course applying the modifier to Recover Energy nerfs that spell because of the high minimum to get any benefit. However, anyone who can cope with a -5 or -10 penaty on other spells is pretty darn good, and even so they'll be avoiding ranged spells because -1 per yard on top of that is harsh, and Missile spells start to look relevant.

Are you familiar with GURPS Cabal (from 3e)? Much of its content is in GURPS Thaumatology, but it's not tied together so clearly. The idea with Cabal is that Earth has Very Low mana, but magicians can get bonuses to off-set the huge penalty from sympathy, contagion, true names, etc. It uses the standard magic system, but gives it the ritual flavor of path magic. Might be something to check out.

Also, an Energy Reserve is a big deal in Very Low Mana, assuming you can deal with the -10 in the first place, and Mana Enhancer is even better. Are these available? GURPS Magic assumes no Energy Reserve only because it was written before Powers. Taking the One College Only limitation from Magery at -40%, plus either Granted by Familiar or Gadget (a wand works out to about -40%), then a 30pt ER costs 18 points, reasonable for a 100pt wizard. It'll mean that almost every wizard in poor mana environments is a specialist, but if you use any option where more energy can offset the penalty for low mana, it'll mean commercial magic is feasible.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gef

There's no granularity there. You either deal with fractions, or just say it kicks in around -8.

Although 2+ decimal places would overwhelm me, I could deal with 1, so I was thinking to charge ⅒ an FP point per -1 penalty.

Or if that's too brutal, maybe use Cole's action point system and just charge 1 extra AP per -1.

Originally Posted by Gef

And of course applying the modifier to Recover Energy nerfs that spell because of the high minimum to get any benefit.

Yeah the need to get to 15 for any sort of benefit is brutal...

Also the big jumps rather than gradual progression don't reward intermediate skill levels so much...

I'm wondering if anyone worked up a more gradual progression system, even though it might be more book-keeping. Like to take a stab:

12 = 10m (baseline)
13 = 9m
14 = 8m
15 = 7m
16 = 6m
17 = 5m
18 = 4m
19 = 3m
20 = 2m

This would make it kick in a little earlier, but also be weaker at skill 15.

Originally Posted by Gef

GURPS Magic assumes no Energy Reserve only because it was written efore Powers.

yeah, Magic was 27 Feb 2006 vs Powers on 7 April 2006.

Originally Posted by Gef

Taking the One College Only limitation from Magery at -40%, plus either Granted by Familiar or Gadget (a wand works out to about -40%), then a 30pt ER costs 18 points, reasonable for a 100pt wizard.

Are you able to take that on ER though?

Despite P119 making some mention of magic, the limitations only seem designed for powers, like it's -50% for "One Power" but I don't know if spells count like that (I guess Sorcery would?)

Taking "Abilities Only" if you don't want your mage using ER to power "Stunts" seems like a good way to at least get -10%

One major issue about ER (Magic) I'm wondering about is how the two versions of "Slow Recharge" interact with things that improve ER recovery such as Recover Energy or Regeneration (ER only).

-20% Hourly replace the 10 minutes... 6x as long. So for RE with 6x5m and 6x2m I guess perhaps it might come back 1 per 30 minutes or 1 per 12 minutes?

Given that Lend Energy can be used to recharge ERs (T50) you could have a mage using his faster-regenerating FP to replenish his cheap ER reserve. Or if there was a ban on self-casting LE, a pair of mages could still pull off that trick.

[Gef]

>12 = 10m (baseline)...20 = 2m
>This would make it kick in a little earlier, but also be weaker at skill 15.

Hmm, I might try that next time I run a standard magic campaign, but it won't be soon

>yeah, Magic was 27 Feb 2006 vs Powers on 7 April 2006.

Not what I mean exactly; Magic shows little evidence of being updated from 3e to 4e.

>Are you able to take that on ER though?

GM call; as GM I've done it in fantasy campaigns and liked the results. It means that quick enchantment is possible with a circle of 6 up to 250 energy, which gets you +1 Accuracy or +1 Puissance on weapons for instance, with a big jump to +2, although +2 with Bane is doable in stages. I actually like that it makes Bane a big deal. You can even make a Cornucopia of really crappy arrows, but at least you always have ammo and free practice, which is below the granularity of the game mechanics but would be a bg deal for armies where several archers could share a quiver on the range. Outside of weapon enchantments, the repertoire possible for 250 is small, but wider than the 60 you'd get otherwise, which is basically just Staff and Powerstone.

It also means that something tactical like a D&D fireball is possible, Rain of Fire 60' across. If your side can use a shield wall to keep enemy troops trapped in that area, they'll die.

>Or if there was a ban on self-casting LE, a pair of mages could still pull off that trick.

Lend Energy is enchantable for 100. If you're wife's not a witch, get a husky for a familiar, with Lend Energy on its collar.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gef

GM call; as GM I've done it in fantasy campaigns and liked the results.

I guess there's already some precedent for it in One-College Powerstones (12 is 60% of 20).

Would you also then allow One-Spell ERs? I've thought it would be cool to do one-spell powerstones on the cheap.

I'm not sure how that would work with enchantment though, you might need it to be a two-spell powerstone/ER (still cheap, -75% instead of -80%) since it's sort of like doing 2 spells when you enchant.

Originally Posted by Gef

Lend Energy is enchantable for 100. If you're wife's not a witch, get a husky for a familiar, with Lend Energy on its collar.

Wow, you're right, M89 doesn't even limit that to mages-only despite that usually being standard for enchanting spells which require magery to learn.

With "Power" (M57) for 500 energy you could even do it for free, more important than usual since you can't get a high-skill discount for it, so the only other way to get free LE would be crit successes.

Probably best to get 2 levels (so you can have Power 1 in Low Mana).

The doubling in High Mana makes me wonder if we could customize a "Power 0.5" for only 250 energy which only gives 1 energy discount in High Mana and is useless in normal.

Another thing I just noticed is I'm not sure if we were told how Thaumatology's introduction of Very Low Mana would affect Power. Given that it lumps High and Very High together as the same (double) maybe it just gets lumped together at half?

I wouldn't mind if it was halved again (quartered so you need Power 4 to get a discount of 1) just like it might be cool of Very High was doubled again (Power 1 = Power 4) but the latter could be too powerful...

Another idea is if using Continuous Mana we could instead make the impact of the "Power" enchantment more variable. Like instead of 0.5/1/2 discount at Low/Normal/High+VH it could be something like a base discount of 1 at normal (plus/minus zero) and then the discount goes up or down in 0.1 increments per +1 or -1.

That would lead to a 2-energy discount at +10 and a 0-energy discount at -10. It would require tracking energy/FP by a single decimal but that's tolerable (or even tasty) crunch to some. Using Continuous Mana is going on the crunchy path anyway, so the more aspects it affects, the more it matters.

One idea I'm kind of toying with is... what if there was no such thing as "No Mana" and you just indefinitely applied penalties beyond the -10 for Very Low Mana to reflect sparser and sparser amounts?

Like previously No Mana worlds might just be thought of as -20 zones, so you could still in theory have uber-skilled mages somehow casting stuff or using high-power (35+) enchanted items in there. But per the VL rule (spend 1 FP per spell, can't come from ER, can't be discounted) I'd keep building that too, so -20 should at least cost 2 FP per spell or maybe that could even increase geometrically.

Like if the FP penalty were based on a tenth of the skill penalty squared then -20 would be 4 FP, or if cubed it would be 8 FP, and so on.