08-25-2014, 11:03 AM | #21 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyďv, Ukraine
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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But the point remains: results seem to differ significantly depending on what order of operations is chosen, even assuming same dice results and same Reaction Modifiers. That seems like a reason to suspect that I'm getting it wrong somehow in my step-by-step analysis. So how does it work? |
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09-07-2014, 05:31 PM | #22 | |
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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In the game im currently playing I believe the GM is using an interpretation of the rules where you can add/subtract 50% of fair value from the item based on the magin of success of the quick contest. But we have only used it when goin to the good ol pawn shop. |
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09-07-2014, 09:01 PM | #23 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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Bill Stoddard |
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09-08-2014, 08:11 AM | #24 | |||||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyďv, Ukraine
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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Mr. Ford is an adventurer. He has $800,000 worth of finances for a heist. He wants to spend them to buy a small used spaceship from Mr. Watt, the spaceship junkyard dealer. A loan/lease/etc. is not an option. The ship he wants, after the adjustment for being used, costs $1000,000. Ford knows this, Watt knows this. So Mr. Ford knows he must get the price down to 80%. Luckily, the business is slow this year, so there's some grounds for negotiating the price, and Ford is a charming fellow, so he's got reasonable chances to achieve a nice reaction roll. For the sake of the experiment, let us assume that he can expect to get a result of 16 after all modifiers. OTOH, he knows he shouldn't rely on using the Quick Contest of Merchant skills for one reason or another (most likely because he's not all that apt in it compared to Watt). At this point Ford has to make a decision about how to approach. Apparently, this choice is significant.
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09-08-2014, 08:54 AM | #25 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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First, a bit of history. The Basic Set has that ±1 modifier; I needed to make sense of how it worked. It seemed clear to me that it couldn't very well apply if the merchant was asked "how much?"—the PCs wouldn't have offered anything, so he wouldn't have anything to react to. On the other hand, it could apply if the PCs had named a price, and it seemed as if it applied at all, it had to apply then. So basically what I was doing was not replacing the Basic Set rules, so much as giving a full set of mechanics that was consistent with what they said—"saving the appearances." (This is basic to GURPS supplements generally. They can say, "Here is a clarified system," or, "Here is an optional alternative approach," but they can't just say, "The Basic Set is wrong. Do it this other way.") So let's look at the social context. In one case, the customer has asked the merchant what the price is for that spacecraft. The merchant has named a price. The customer has said, "That's more than my budget will cover. Will you take 20% less?" And the merchant may want the sale enough to come down. But in the other case, the customer starts off by saying, "I want to buy that, and I'll offer you X for it"—where X is 20% below the fair market value. That's leading off by trying to push the merchant into a less favorable deal, before the merchant has any involvement in the transaction. The initial reaction may be a bit negatively biased by the customer's pushiness. Or, assuming a coldly pragmatic merchant, they may well figure that that 80% is not the best offer the customer can make, because no customer would start out the bargaining by naming the highest price they can pay; obviously, if they offer 80%, they must have money to pay 90%, and demanding 100% may get them to raise their offer. Bidding is a social process that reveals information and takes place through revealing information. Why would you not expect it to make a difference who reveals information in what order? At any rate, that was the best rationalization I could come up with for the Basic Set rules, or for my attempt to clarify them. If you have a more elegant system of rules to suggest, I'd suggest writing it up. Bill Stoddard |
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09-08-2014, 10:22 AM | #26 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
With a few exceptions. Off-hand Weapon Training immediately springs to mind.
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09-08-2014, 01:18 PM | #27 |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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09-09-2014, 03:37 AM | #28 | ||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyďv, Ukraine
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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Regarding naming those 80%:
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Ah. I am considering using a houserule for my campaigns next time this comes up, but I indeed need to make a sensible one. I don't think it would be Pyramid-worthy, so I suppose it can be posted here if I ever come up with one. |
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09-09-2014, 06:33 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
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Looking at the situation you describe, it appears that Watt is making his proposal without having seen Ford's proposal. Therefore Ford's proposal cannot be the source of a reaction modifier. So when Watt sees Ford's proposal he will have already decided that 80% is acceptable, and will accept it. On the other hand, that sort of writing down numbers seems like it would naturally be the start of an advanced haggling process. I just don't see the two prices being compared, and the merchant just saying, "Okay, yeah, your offer's good enough." If you have two starting prices the natural sequel is to bargain about where you're going to split the difference. Bill Stoddard |
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09-09-2014, 06:57 AM | #30 |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyďv, Ukraine
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Re: Merchant / Haggling: Clarification/cleanup of current rules vs remaking from scra
Another interesting consideration is a case when two NPCs meet to trade. This can actually be important e.g. when PCs send their minion with a task to buy (or sell) some goods, expecting the minion to act reasonably of its own volition at this point.
What's actually interesting about this case is that the Reaction Modifiers of both the seller and the buyer matter for the initial price-figuring. |
Tags |
basic set, haggling, merchant, social engineering |
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